Kitz Forum
Chat => Chit Chat => Topic started by: sevenlayermuddle on November 11, 2015, 05:37:57 PM
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Anybody else been using winter tyres?
I have, for about 5 or 6 years now. The difference, not just in snow but even just on a light frost, was night and day - astonishing. On snow, they allow my 2wd saloon to storm past stranded Chelsea tractors.
But after these 5 seasons (or is it 6) the tread is nearly down to min (4mm for winters) and my 'summer' tyres also well past their prime. So I've invested in a new breed, Michelin Crossclimate. More than just an all-season, the best of both worlds, or so they claim. :-\
Wonder if I'll regret it?
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Anybody else been using winter tyres?
I have, for about 5 or 6 years now. The difference, not just in snow but even just on a light frost, was night and day - astonishing.
Similar time period (maybe a bit longer) on both our cars, similar very positive response. Won't ever go back. :cool:
I have a separate set (of 5, spare included) for each car so it's a relatively simple swap twice a year.
I usually arrange for tyre replacement (due to wear) to be done at the same time, so I pre-order them via t'internet.
Mobile tyre fitter turns up, swaps tyres as required (only one winter tyre for this autumn changeover) and then does the wheel swap on both.
The winter wheels are a smaller diameter (and deeper profile tyre) than summer. Also cheaper alloys and I don't worry about minor cosmetic damage on bad winter roads.
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I have winter tyres on my Tiguan, been on it ever since I bought it in Scotland a couple of years ago, can't tell if they make any difference but almost certainly will. Before that I had an Audi Allroad, that was brilliant in the snow with normal tyres. We have a set of winter tyres at work for my bosses BMW 320, put on every winter and these make a lot of difference, but BMW's are renowned for being bad in the snow.
My bosses wife has an BMW X5, a set of tyre's for that used to cost a £1000+vat, last spring they were going skiing so I ordered in a full set of winter tyres on brand new alloys for just under half that, they have also been left on all year. The car drives much better with the narrower tyres in general and grips better in the snow because they are narrower. They are also wearing better as well. The old tyres were 275/40R20 fronts and 315/35R20 rears, the new ones are 255/50R19 all around, and they look just as good, so a win/win situation.
If anybody wants winters tyres then I'd advise you to order them ASAP, as they seem very hard to get hold of once winters actually here.
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The winter wheels are a smaller diameter (and deeper profile tyre) than summer. Also cheaper alloys and I don't worry about minor cosmetic damage on bad winter roads.
Yes it is the (lack) of wheel size optimisation that I think I may regret. Mine were also on plain old fashioned steel wheels, smaller and narrower but with taller tyres to make up the radius. They just sat in a corner of the garage, I swapped them over twice a year.
But it was a hassle. If these new fangled things work, it'll be one less hassle. If they don't work, the winter tyres are still just serviceable, and will go back on again for at least a few weeks.
I'm almost looking forward to some snow now, to find out. As long as I can just drive up and down the lane to experiment, then retire back indoors til it's over, I'll be happy.
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I have not used anything but normal tyres on all my cars for years now and to be honest I've not had any problems in snow or ice, you just adjust your driving to cope with the conditions.
Many years ago (like about 45 or so) I had a Mini Countryman and in the winter I did have a set of Town & Country tyres I kept for winter, made a huge difference on the hill I had to climb to get into our road in snow, often passed 4WD cars stuck and just cruised past them.
The only car I had any issue with was a Hillman Imp which was notorious in ice and snow and you either had half a hundred weight of something in the boot (it was rear engine so boot was at front) or at least kept the petrol tank full (also at front) so you had some weight over the steering wheels - it did not matter what tyres you had on that car it was lousy in those conditions.
Stuart
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I also used to be able to say 'never had a problem', even despite being raised in west of Scotland.
But of all the cars I've owned, from old Ford Cortinas and Escorts through 1990s Astras and the likes, the only one that ever beat me (completely stranded on a very gentle hill) was a modern fwd Volvo. :blush:
One problem is, these old Fords had max speeds circa 80mph, which was not demanding of the tyre compounds. Their modern equivalents have speeds of 130mph or so, hence the tyre manufacturers have had to specialise and in doing so, sacrificed winter performance. There is also the modern fashion for very wide wheels that serve no purpose but, again, compromise handling in snow.
It is also possible that all above is just a feeble excuse, and it's just me, that my skills have deteriorated. I like to think that's no so but even it were, it is a fact that would need facing. ::)
Regardless of which explanation you subscribe to, a problem still exists, and winter tyres do address the problem. :)
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Anybody else been using winter tyres?
I have, for about 5 or 6 years now. The difference, not just in snow but even just on a light frost, was night and day - astonishing. On snow, they allow my 2wd saloon to storm past stranded Chelsea tractors.
But after these 5 seasons (or is it 6) the tread is nearly down to min (4mm for winters) and my 'summer' tyres also well past their prime. So I've invested in a new breed, Michelin Crossclimate. More than just an all-season, the best of both worlds, or so they claim. :-\
Wonder if I'll regret it?
I like the idea of a tyre that can be used in all seasons but I got put off 12-18months ago when I did some research and the All-Season Tyres were shown to worse that good Summer Tyres in Summer.
I would be interested in how these work out, as if good in Winter and Summer, I would be tempted swap.
Have you used Michelin Primacy 3 Tyres, as they are a Tyre I know, and if so how do they compare to the Crossclimates ?
Particularly comparison of Grip in Wet/Dry and Hardness of the compound, as Michelin Primacy's have over recent years moved to a softer compound that increases wear.
I liked the previous Primacy & Primacy 2's and got good performance & wear.
I found the Primacy 3's had a compound change that made them too soft and wear was excessive by my measure.
It was a real pity, as I mostly liked/used Michelin Tyres over the last 20 years, but the Primacy 3 was not worth the premium cost with the increased wear rate.
Last time I did any research regarding Winter Tyres, I found the 'Best' Winter Tyres were very good in winter but well under average in summer (as expected).
All-Season Tyres were roughly equivalent to the mid+ ranking Winter Tyres and average- Summer Tyres, this meant that you compromised too much, in both seasons which was not good.
Any All-Season Tyre that can improve on the above rankings would be of interest.
I am cannot afford the cost of new wheels for my car + Winter Tyres, so one set of Tyres would be ideal, if they work!!.
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Most of the reviews I've read say these cross climates are very nearly, if not as good, as winter tyres in ice and snow, though they concede that winter tyres might have the edge in some ways. Michelin's blurb tends to focus on 'keeping you mobile', ie snow traction and braking.
But the reviews are pretty much unamanous that summer and wet performance are every bit as good and sometimes measurably better, as regular summer tyres. That seems to be their selling point, vs traditional all-seasons. I've not seen any criticism of wear rates, but that's less a worry for me as I don't do much mileage any more.
All I've done is drive them home so far. Only noticeable difference from the Pirimacies they replaced was they are definitely a little quieter, as also mentioned by some reviewers. I was able to (deliberately) get the traction control light to flash on the damp leaves coming up my own drive in 2nd, but it has been doing that on the primacies too. Sorry, don't know what version the primacies were.
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Interesting. I have a Nissan X-trail that we bought for the primary purpose of towing the caravan. Our other car is a C-Max which as it is far more economical we use for the majority of trips. We are in a pretty rural area and while there is a small Co-op, we have to get in the car for most shopping so winter conditions could be an issue.
The caravan is mainly used for kite festivals, so it's not on normal camp sites but on recreation grounds so having the 4WD available on the X-trail has been a boon. I've been starting to think what tyres I might get when the time comes to replace them. Wide wheels is still an advantage as the ground can be soft on some of the places we go. Crossclimate might be an option - I'll have to look in to that.
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Many years ago (like about 45 or so) I had a Mini Countryman and in the winter I did have a set of Town & Country tyres I kept for winter, made a huge difference on the hill I had to climb to get into our road in snow, often passed 4WD cars stuck and just cruised past them.
Stuart
I had the same and one year the Motorway and all other roads were closed with snow, I was the only person to make it to work in a hospital that morning.
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I am cannot afford the cost of new wheels for my car + Winter Tyres
Yes, it's a capital outlay but in the long run I firmly believe it saves money, in addition to the obvious benefits. Here's why:
1. The "appropriate" tyres for the conditions work better, slip less and wear less, so you get more miles out of them.
2. In the long run you drive as many miles and buy no more (probably less, see #1) tyres.
3. Winter wheels are typically smaller so have cheaper deeper-profile tyres.
4. You don't worry about minor damage to winter wheels so in the long run spend less on refurbishment (if you do that).
5. The deeper-profile tyres are less susceptible to road damage to both wheel and tyre. Fewer repairs.
6. If you avoid one minor accident (let alone a major one) you've saved it all several times over.
And finally, to reduce the capital outlay: Winter wheels can often be bought VERY cheaply as they are often available as smaller "cast-offs" from people upgrading to larger wheels. That's how I got all mine (10).
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I did look into getting a replacement wheel as I have a space saver spare wheel and the cost was silly.
(Don't get me started on Space saver wheels + tyres !! )
I agree of course with all the advantages but cost is still an issue.
Sent from my LG G3 via Tapatalk (Typos & bad formatting are free)
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Given the constraints of space-saver spares I would presume that it's acceptable to retain the same spare summer and winter.
I'm lucky in that both my cars have full-size spares.
Capital/cash-flow is always an issue, but with a bit of advance planning can be controlled/spread, e.g. buy the "winter" wheels as and when available and look at starting with part-worn tyres.
I very recently bought a premier brand winter part-worn in near-new condition (about 7mm tread) for about a third of the brand-new price. (Pirelli Sottozero Winter 240 Serie II)
I normally buy new but in this case I needed to replace just one and wanted to match the rest of the set. The others have seen a couple of seasons use and are worn to about that level.
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If you are fussy about having a full size spare the Cross Climates may not be for you as they are directional so two spares would be needed, one for each side.
I've talked myself out of being fussy about spares, on the basis that punctures are actually (tempting fate, touching wood) quite rare nowadays.
Also some cars I've owned owner's manuals have advised that even non-directional tyres should be regarded as directional once they've been on the car a while. Undecided whether to believe that, it can't be a major thing as not all cars have stated it, in fact the last time I saw it was a car I bought in 2000. Crikey, that was nearly 16 years ago, maybe just outdated advise. :(
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All my tyres, summer and winter, are asymmetric. I don't like directional ones.
I last bought a car nearly 3 years ago, but it wasn't new. Currently we have 1998 and 2002 (reg 2003) models on the drive.
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I've talked myself out of being fussy about spares, on the basis that punctures are actually (tempting fate, touching wood) quite rare nowadays.
My car doesn't have a spare at all, just an emergency repair kit which seals a puncture and inflates the tyre.
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My car doesn't have a spare at all, just an emergency repair kit which seals a puncture and inflates the tyre.
I carry one of these too, as well as the skinny space saver.
One problem, or so I've heard, is that some tyre centres will refuse to repair a puncture if sealant has been used, so the tyre's a always write-off. Can't remember their exuse, I'm sure Google would know.
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Those emergency kits are no good at all if the hole is too big, or the tyre has blown out.
As part of my job I have repaired car tyres and truck tyres, and it's done pretty much the same way as you would a bicycle tyre/tube. Only difference is most tyres are tubeless, so the patch is stuck to the actual tyre, although we use plug patches which have a rubber tail which is pulled through the hole, then the extra bit is cut off.
Now if your tyre is full of goo you've got to clean it off before you can glue the plug patch into place. I suspect it's because of this that tyre centre's refuse to repair them, and they'd much rather sell you a new tyre anyway. I myself have never seen a tyre where that type of product has been used, so can't comment how bad it is.
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This document (http://www.btmauk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Minor-repairs-to-passenger-car-and-light-van-tyres.pdf) details the how and why of BS AU159 which is the relevant British Standard to which any repairs should be carried out. I have not seen anything which says a repair cannot be carried out if you use a post-puncture repair sealant, however it probably does make life more difficult and time consuming for the repairer.
Stuart
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Also some cars I've owned owner's manuals have advised that even non-directional tyres should be regarded as directional once they've been on the car a while.
I read that some years ago as well.
I think it relates to the tyres getting a 'Wear' pattern, as the wear is not usually 100% even across the tyre. (This happens even if the tyres are inflated correctly etc)
I have noticed this on a car when I was doing a regular journey of hundreds of miles, twice each week with lots of Roundabouts\winding roads and the some of the tyres were wearing more on the edges.
(Yes the tyres were inflated correctly and the toe-in/out etc was correct. Company Car, so everything was serviced and checked to the letter.)
This also relates to Tyre rotation which I have not noticed in car manuals for years.
It could also be the Tyre Manufacturers NOT encouraging you to make your tyres 'last longer via rotation' to increase sales/profit. ;D ;D
As I trust my life to Tyres/Brakes I tend not to take risks and do not run them down to the last mm of safe tread/wear, even if the law allows me to.
I also, personally, would not run on Tyres with a noticeable asymmetric wear pattern and would not rotate them to try to even them up.
(Until you manage to get the Tyre wear even across the tread, you are actually running on degraded grip etc. Also by time you have 'evened out' the wear you may be down to a tread depth that is giving you degraded grip anyway.)
I have noticed that Tyres give you their best performance during the 1st (1/3 to 1/2) of the Tread from new, after that you are adapting your driving style to the reducing performance of the tyres.
That is why you notice such a change when new tyres are fitted, as you have been compensating for your Tyres as they wear !!
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Deliberately resurrecting an old thread here, as I think it remains relevant.
Better half just set off for work, got half way up our steep drive, wheels spinning all the way on a layer of sheet ice, before being beaten by a big puddle of solid ice near the top, and gingerly reversing back down again. Even worse at the second attempt. So before fixing the problem with a few handfuls of rock salt, I decided to try out these 'winter/summer' Michelin Cross Climate tyres, with which I opened the thread.
What a difference. The cross climates cruised calmly up the hill without a hint of wheel spin. Not so much as a blink from the traction control light either, which also warns of any wheel spin.
Both cars are manual, front-drive, and better than 5mm tread on all tyres. :)
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Modern cars with wide, low profile tyres are at best rubbish in poor winter conditions, more so if RWD.
Even though I live on the south coast, having a RWD BMW 330, the extra grip I get I still find worthwhile, more so when I visit relations in Stockport and Scotland. I would not even contemplate a trip up there on standard tyres unless the forecast for the trip was not going to drop under 5C.
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I have always been a big fan of winter tyres. I used to keep two sets of wheels so I could easily just just change them over in the spring and autumn.
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I agree the problem is largely with the fact that excessively wide tyres seem to have become an essential fashion accessory in the minds of car designers. They may have minimal adverse effects in summer, but imao they are definitely poorer in winter. Also the fact that modern 'summer' tyres are of more specialised rubber compared with 30 years ago, optimised for warm weather, that looses too much flexibility in the cold.
Like Weaver, I used to keep two full sets of wheels, one for winter, one for summer. One problem was my insurers (ridiculously) treated my winter tyres/wheels as a 'modification'. Even though they agreed not to charge me for it, I had to notify them whenever I changed over, which was a hassle.
Hence I settled on the Cross Climates, and yesterday was the first day I got to see any direct evidence of their worth. Incidentally, when I said 'ice', I meant exactly that... hasn't snowed here at all, but the freezing fog had settled on the drive at a ground temp about -4 creating a layer of ice you couldn't even walk on.
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It never even occurred to me to tell my insurer about changing tyres or wheels. Both wheels and tyres in my case were a manufacturer's option, and both sets of tyres were the correct rated ones for my particular model.
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My wheels were supplied by the car manufacturer via dealer, specified for my model of car, for the stated purpose of fitting winter tyres. But they were a different (more optimal) size than factory fitment and so not a normal option on a car of my spec, at least in the UK. So I decided to call the insurers, just to put my mind at rest. Tbh I almost wished I hadn't mentioned it, but with insurance these days you really do want to be totally open and squeaky clean, just in case you ever need to claim. :(
One of the reasons they cited for concern was that 'non standard wheels might make the vehicle more attractive to a thief'. That despite the fact the the standard wheels were fancy alloys, whereas the winter wheels were cheap as chips, old fashioned black coated plain steel wheels with a plastic hub cap. ::)
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I've also been curious about that in the past and found this piece of information on the AA website:
"If you follow the standard European practice of keeping two sets of wheels, one with winter tyres and one with summer tyres, then you shouldn't need to tell your insurer as long as the winter tyres are fitted to wheels of the correct specification."
https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk
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Indeed, dealers were making users aware that they should be fitting winter tyres for my particular model, and were making sure you had exactly the right tyres for both summer (speed ratings) and winter use.
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I've also been curious about that in the past and found this piece of information on the AA website:
"If you follow the standard European practice of keeping two sets of wheels, one with winter tyres and one with summer tyres, then you shouldn't need to tell your insurer as long as the winter tyres are fitted to wheels of the correct specification."
https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk
That quote from the AA might be useful evidence for anybody who has to fight an insurance company over a policy that's been cancelled for non disclosure, but I personally would prefer to avoid such a fight in the first place. And a little further down that same AA page, it says...
"Over the winter of 2010/11 we did hear reports of some insurers increasing premiums or remarkably even refusing cover if winter tyres are fitted. As a result we recommend talking to your insurer if you are considering fitting winter tyres."
If your insurer doesn't mind, they'll tell you they don't mind, always best to tell them absolutely everything imho.
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"If you follow the standard European practice of keeping two sets of wheels, one with winter tyres and one with summer tyres, then you shouldn't need to tell your insurer as long as the winter tyres are fitted to wheels of the correct specification."
I wouldn't take that as definitive. Insurance companies try anything to get out of paying. If the policy specifically says something about notifying them that you're using specialist weather tyres then I don't saying "but the AA says it should be alright" will make any difference.
My neighbour had a claim rejected a couple years ago for having a vinyl stripe down both sides of his car. They classed it as a "modification". Fortunately it was a fairly small claim. I'd be fuming if they did that to me with a claim for a considerable amount.
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I am confident that they will try anything to get out of paying a claim, plain cheating in plain words. I suspect that there are some people who have this role as their one job, to find out if there is any way of getting their employers out of their duty.
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When they can cite 'non disclosure' I believe they'll normally cancel, or 'void', the policy in order to avoid paying out.
In that case, quite apart from having to pay for your own repair costs and liability for other parties, when applying for future insurance you will have to answer 'yes' when asked "have you ever had a policy cancelled". Consequences of saying "yes" are likely to be hugely loaded premiums, or outright refusal. And that applies for the rest of your life. :(
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Just curious if anyone has personal experience with Toyo tires for winter use. I'm thinking of trying their new Snowprox S954 next winter season. Nokian has the best ratings but expensive.
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