Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: kitz on April 06, 2015, 02:47:54 PM

Title: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 06, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
This thread is to clarify some of the confusion regarding BT's implementation of G.INP as I notice that we are being quite heavily linked from quite a lot of other websites and forums.   
There are many informative posts in the relevant threads, but unfortunately some people on external sites are either misquoting or misinterpreting  or misunderstanding information contained in them.   Whilst there's a lot of valuable information which is scattered over several threads, there are also some off topic posts which have just served to confuse matters further and the topics have become so large that its impossible to merge them together.

Im hoping that by starting a new thread we can set some of the key points together in one place.  We are not yet aware of all the information nor what BT are doing but the first posts will be updated when more information is released.





What is G.INP?

G.INP is also known as:-

G.INP offers effective protection against Impulse Noise in order to improve line stability.  It also reduces overheads and latency when compared to traditional methods of interleaving and RS Error Correction.


Quote
Any appliance with an electric motor, power switch or power adapter is capable of generating impulse noise. Telephone wiring in subscribers’ homes picks up the noise from such appliances which, in turn, impairs DSL transmission. The severity depends on how close the source of the impairment is to the telephone wiring and the quality of the wiring itself. Service providers tell us, however, that many of their subscribers’ homes have lower quality wiring, so are susceptible to impairment.

Impulse noise comes in two main flavors – intermittent and repetitive. Noise that occurs as sporadic, unpredictable events is called SHINE (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#REIN) (single high impulse noise event). SHINE (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#REIN) often originates from turning an appliance on or off. Impulse noise that is consistent is known as REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#REIN) (repetitive electrical impulse noise). Household dimmers and faulty power adaptors are a common source of REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#REIN).

Impulse noise protection (INP)  (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm#INP)is generally comprised of techniques used by DSL transceivers to protect against the effects of impulse noise on the transmitted signal. The former best practice for handling impulse noise was to use forward error correction (FEC) based on Reed Solomon codes, together with interleaving (i.e., I-FEC) to detect and then correct errors within a block of data.

I-FEC works well with REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#REIN), but is less efficient with SHINE (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#SHINE), because it requires a fixed overhead of between 6% and 12% of bandwidth under normal circumstances, and up to 20% when attempting speeds of 100 Mbps. In effect, this means service providers actually need to squeeze 120 Mbps out of their VDSL2 lines to deliver 100 Mbps service to consumers due to the 20% overhead.

The G.inp standard (G.998.4) was approved by the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) in 2010. It is intended to provide enhanced protection against impulse noise or increase the efficiency of providing INP (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm#INP).

The G.inp standard specifies the use of physical layer retransmission to enhance INP (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm#INP). The approach is similar to the retransmission method used in TCP/IP. Instead of IP packets, however, data transfer units (DTU) are sent between transmitter and receiver. When packets get corrupted during transmission, the transmitting peer is informed and the DTU is resent.

There are several benefits to the G.inp approach. Compared to I-FEC, the method only consumes transmission capacity when retransmission is required, traditionally consuming less than 1% (more on that later). And unlike TCP/IP, all the traffic is protected, including TCP, IP, UDP, SMTP, HTTP and more.

In addition, the round-trip time — i.e., the (minimum) time required for retransmission — is very short in case of G.inp because the DTU error detection and retransmission occurs at the physical layer.. TCP/IP retransmission often takes up to 50 milliseconds, while G.inp only takes a couple of milliseconds (4 milliseconds is typical). The result is also that G.inp achieves enhanced INP with good efficiency at shorter delays compared to I-FEC.

Reducing latency is important even when retransmission is not required. Due to the end-to-end communication between the server and the client, having faster responses reduces the amount of time required to complete an end-user request, such as to start streaming a video or download a webpage. Beyond the speed of the connection, reduced latency improves response times and makes for a better end-user experience.

By providing extra protection and reducing latency on the weakest link – DSL – G.inp improves the entire communication chain.

Source: Alcatel-Lucent (http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/g-inp-secret-stable-100-mbps-copper/)
Title: Re: G.INP
Post by: kitz on April 06, 2015, 02:56:39 PM
G.INP Rollout

First announced in this thread: BT nationwide rolling out G.INP/PhyR and changes to DLM. (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,14867.0.html)

Timescale

07 Jan 2015: BT Openreach is rolling out G.INP technology nationwide on VDSL lines. G.INP -alternatively known as PhyR, gives effective protection against noise bursts.
12 Jan 2015: Roll out to Huawei cabs commences and should be complete by end of March 2015.
22 Mar 2015: Roll out to ECI cabs anticipated to commence April 2015† (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15190.msg282655.html#msg282655)

----

Stage One - Update DSLAMs in the cabinet.

Involves 5-10 minutes downtime during the wee small hours whilst configuration changes are made to the DSLAMs in the fttc cabinets.
14th Jan Some users start to report small over-night outages. 

Stage Two -  G.INP & DLM profile applied to line.

Rollout at a rate of 45,000 lines per day† (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15099.0.html)
Feb - Users on Huawei cabs start to see G.INP appear in their line stats.
Mar - ECI cab in Martlesham Heath G.INP live† (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15190.msg283232.html#msg283232)


How to tell if G.INP has been applied to your line.

Obvious signs to look for are G.INP Framing and use of Bearer 1 † (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,14867.msg279698.html#msg279698)
Profiles available to the ISP show similar to:
0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Retransmission Low



Updates

Title: Re: G.INP
Post by: kitz on April 06, 2015, 04:42:29 PM
The problems with BT Openreach ECI modems.


ECI modem - Issue 1
8th Jan 2015: ECI modems with old firmware connected to a G.INP enabled DSLAM, will appear to have sync but are not able to complete the initialisation process or get a PPP session.

Problem

ECI modems cannot to connect to the Internet.  Sync light is on.

Solution

EU's will need to contact their ISP to arrange an Openreach Engineer to perform a DLM reset on the line.  This should remove the ReTX profile and allow the ECI modem to sync up and be able to download the latest firmware. 

Openreach engineers are only allowed to perform a DLM reset if a hard fault has been found.  A faulty ECI modem is considered a hard fault.   

Note:  If you have internet access using the modem, then it will have been updated with the latest firmware. Issue 1 is separate to issue 2 and where a lot of people are mixing up facts :(
 

ECI modem - Issue 2
Large increase in latency and reduction in connection speed.

Problem
Users with ECI modems are reporting doubling of latency and large decrease in sync speed.

We are seeing ever increasing numbers of users complaining of massive increases in ping times such as 9ms > 30ms > 50ms and loss of sync speed anything up to 15Mbps.  Users who are literally next to the cab and previously syncing at a full 80Mbps with no interleaving have seen speeds plummet to 67Mbps.

ISP's may see blank results when performing a GEA test on the line.

Solution

As yet there is no fix.  BT have not responded to any enquiries about this.
Calling out an Openreach engineer for a request for DLM reset is of no use.  DLM resets either will not take or will not stick.
 
Due to lack of an official response, we can only conclude that it would appear that the ECI modems are not compatible with g.inp and the above firmware 'fix' that was rolled out, was simply to enable the modem to connect to the BT network. 

Any lines which are connected using an non-compatible g.inp modem/router appear to default to a DLM profile that applies fairly heavy interleaving and error correction overheads.
Whether this is by design or not is unknown.  It is known that BT first commenced G.INP trials on a limited number of lines in 2013, which is before the DLM changes in Nov 2014 due to the ASSIA court case† (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,14735.0.html).
It's looking increasingly likely that the ECI firmware update mentioned in issue 1 simply sets the  ECI modem to  RETX_ENA=1, yet the modem seems to be incapable of performing ReTransmission correctly hence why we see Issue 2.  See this post (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284453.html#msg284453) for more details.

The only solution we can offer is:
1). Wait and see if BT give an official statement and announce if they are able to release yet another f/w update for the ECI modems and/or if they can make changes to the DLM system which is less harsh for non-compliant modems.
2). Purchase a compatible modem/router.

Use of a compatible G.INP modem/router returns the DLM to normal within 24hrs or so.
AAISP are still waiting for a reply - link (https://aastatus.net/search.cgi?search=retx).


Rumours




Huawei HG612 modems.

These should be fine and work well as long as they have been upgraded to the latest firmware.

Anyone using an unlocked HG612 should ensure they are using HowlingWolfs latest firmware (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,14262.0.html) B030SP08
This will show in your stats as
Code: [Select]
Software version    V100R001C01B030SP08
Firmware version    A2pv6C038m.d24j



Compatible Modem/Routers known to work with G.INP:

ASUS DSL-AC68U
Billion 8800NL
Billion 8800AXL
BT HomeHub 5 Type B  (BCM chipset & Software version V0.07.01.0235-BT)
Draytek Vigor 2860 series - 28/04/15 Appears to only work with g.inp beta f/w available here (http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/downloads).  May also work with the vectoring f/w on the same page
Fritzbox vdsl routers - 7390 & 7490 are ok. unsure if it applies to all models.
Netgear DGND3700v1 (Custom firmware: 2015-02-08 (http://www.richud.com/wiki/DGND3700_V1_Transmission_Firmware))
Netgear D6400 - Now seems to be working.
Sky Hub SR102
Talk Talk Super router (Huawei HG635)
Thomson TG589vn v3
TP-Link TD-W9980 - compatible if using f/w TD-W9980_V1_150507 (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,13898.msg287835.html#msg287835) .
Zyxel VMG8324
Zyxel VMG8924


Discussion on G.INP compatible modem/routers (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=15356.msg284256#msg284256)



Modem Routers showing increased latency and lower sync

The first three on the list all contain the same Lantiq VRX-268 modem chipset & SoC. All 3 appear to be showing similar symptoms.

BT Openreach ECI modem
BT Homehub 5 Type A (Software version 4.7.5.1.83.8.204)
TP Link TD-W9980. -    TP-Link are working on a fix - see below
Draytek Vigor 2850 series. -  12/05/2015.  Draytek currently dont have any plans to release g.inp f/w for the 2850
Netgear D6400 - Users of this router appear to be having a problem getting Netgear to acknowledge that there is an issue - see here (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15306.msg286276.html#msg286276)  Now seems to be working.


Updates from TP-Link.
07/04/2015 -
TP-Link are aware of the problem on the TD-W990. We will keep you updated.
09/04/2015 -   
TP-Link are aware of a compatibility issue with the chipset which should be capable of G.INP.    TP-Link R&D are jointly working with Lantiq on finding a solution for the TD-W9980.
11/04/2015 -
PN User JHewess is testing beta f/w for TP-link which appears to be successfully working with G.INP on his line.
13/04/2015 -
TP-Link releases beta f/w for g.inp.   More information & download http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15322.0.html
15/04/2015
TP-Link hope to have news about an official f/w release soon.   Problem identified with the underlying Lantiq f/w.
19/05/2015 -
TP-Link releases official g.inp firmware TD-W9980_V1_150507 . -  Now marking the TD-W9980 as compatible.
Title: Re: G.INP
Post by: kitz on April 06, 2015, 08:16:08 PM
G.INP Observations when it goes wrong.

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2FGINP_stats.png&hash=4ecc0bcb61e469b125ffff6a26e776d5)


G.INP Benefits.

The vast majority of people on a Huawei cabinet and those using a HG612 or other G.INP compatible modem have seen no issues.
Most have seen significant improvements to their line which include increased speed, removal of interleaving, less errors.

There is a dedicated thread - G.INP enabled Stats Comparison (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15162.0.html) where members of the kitz community have been posting comparison stats and observations about their line.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: boost on April 07, 2015, 07:57:30 AM
Nice one :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 07, 2015, 08:34:41 AM
With not expecting FTTC until the back end of this year I was aware that there was some issue but hadn't been following it. Suddenly activity started at the beginning of February and my install is 14th April so I was starting to look at this. I'd resigned my self to wading through the many convoluted topics around this subject so the publishing of this brilliant summary could not have come at a better time for me. Thank you Kitz!

Would I be correct to assume new Huawei cabinets will be installed with this already enabled?

When the engineer comes I guess I should be making a fuss if he provides me with a ECI modem!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 07, 2015, 09:41:02 AM
Are you sure you're getting a Huawei cabinet?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 07, 2015, 01:29:03 PM
Are you sure you're getting a Huawei cabinet?

I think so - just taken a quick snap from outside our house - see attached.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 07, 2015, 01:38:51 PM
Aye - looks like the type of cab that houses the Huawei MA5603T. 
Watch for that lock type to be changed ;)

Quote
Would I be correct to assume new Huawei cabinets will be installed with this already enabled?
Yes

Quote
When the engineer comes I guess I should be making a fuss if he provides me with a ECI modem!
Yes.   But you may not get anywhere.   Unfortunately for a good while some area's have only been supplying ECI modems.   I know going back to when mine was installed that the contractor only had ECI modems on their vans.   Its been like that for a while and one of the OR guys has confirmed that their supplies dept only has ECI's in stock - this is the NW so not sure if it will be different down south, but just making you aware that he genuinely may not have a HG612 available.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 07, 2015, 02:10:36 PM
Talking of 'shades of grey'  :blush: I believe there are 2 types of G.Vector. Maybe ASUS are saying it supports one but not the other?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 07, 2015, 02:42:27 PM
I was referring to "system" and "board" but maybe not.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 07, 2015, 02:44:20 PM
I emailed one of the software developers @ TP-Link today and ask if there's any chance that g.inp could be upgraded purely as software update.   It does seem to be that the Lantiq's are predominantly the modems affected by this.   However its not gone unnoticed that the Fritzbox also has the same chipset, so perhaps something could be done.   If I get any info I'll pass it on.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2015, 03:33:17 PM
this post was a good idea, as I suspect many only check the forums and not your main site.
Title: Re: G.INP
Post by: NewtronStar on April 07, 2015, 04:27:06 PM
The only solution we can offer is:
1). Wait and see if BT give an official statement and announce if they are able to release yet another f/w update for the ECI modems.
2). Purchase a compatible modem/router.


Modem Routers showing increased latency and lower sync

The first three on the list all contain a similar Lantiq VRX-268 modem chipsets and all seem to be in a similar situation.

BT Openreach ECI modem
BT Homehub 5 Type A (Software version 4.7.5.1.83.8.204)
TP Link TD W-9980


*Unconfirmed if all models

going back to your solutions is it a case of a firmware upgrade to enable g.inp on the incompatible modems listed as the firmware can only control the hardware and if the hardware lacks the capability then no firmware would be able get g.inp running  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: AArdvark on April 07, 2015, 06:50:38 PM
I was referring to "system" and "board" but maybe not.

Sorry, now I understand. Completely missed what you meant.

Do you mean:
As per the links below at the higher scale ?
Whether 'Vectoring' is implemented at the Card or Full DSLAM level for the lower scale ?

This :
http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/boosting-vdsl2-bit-rates-with-vectoring/ (http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/boosting-vdsl2-bit-rates-with-vectoring/)
then this:
http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/vdsl2-vectoring-in-a-multi-operator-environment-separating-fact-from-fiction/ (http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/vdsl2-vectoring-in-a-multi-operator-environment-separating-fact-from-fiction/)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 07, 2015, 09:14:23 PM
Quote
I believe there are 2 types of G.Vector
I havent read the specs or links, but if you are referring to the type of vectoring that is performed at the dslam then yes.

The ECI M41's can only do so at line card level. 
The Huaweis at system/shelf level, but I believe they need to install another module into the cabs.

The later is far more efficient.
Seems like BT bought a bit of a dud with the ECI's.  I keep hoping that ECI can find some way of slotting in a module rather than having to replace with a V41.

Rather than me repeat myself see here:
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,13902.msg261924.html#msg261924
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2015, 09:23:40 PM
agreed kitz, I observed (and so did ronski) that when BT announced vectoring at the time they were rolling out ECI's almost in all new areas but then very quickly reverted to huawei.  I expect at that point they were aware of the problem.

Card based vectoring can still work if the cable routing is managed to match, but its unlikely that openreach will be moving end users around to optimise it, they will likely just turn it on and hope for the best. (or do no rollout on ECI if the trial results are really bad).

But here is hoping they are negotiating with ECI for a cheap swapout to V41's.

Also bear in mind the V41 was on the market during the M41 rollout, so its not as if ECI didnt have something better available, but seems a problem of BT thinking too short term and going for the cheapest option.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 07, 2015, 09:26:37 PM
Yep you're correct, in 2013 they seemed to be installing ECI's everywhere, then it just ground to a stop and back to Huawei. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2015, 09:28:52 PM
yeah I fell near the end of the ECI window :( cabinet went live in dec 2013.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 07, 2015, 09:40:18 PM
yeah I fell near the end of the ECI window :( cabinet went live in dec 2013.

The ECI did it's job very well and a lot of users out there were convinced that the ECI modem gave them a better Downstream rate with less overall errors in the year 2013 so who is to blame for that ? just your standard overclocker false information.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 08, 2015, 06:47:59 PM
Re TP-Link TD-W9980.   -  Am currently in communication with them and they are aware of a compatibility issue.   I've asked a couple more questions and asked for permission to quote some of the info.  Will try keep this thread updated, as I know there's a lot of people with this modem/router.  All I can say for now is they are aware and are working on finding a solution.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: boost on April 08, 2015, 07:31:16 PM
Quote
I believe someone suggested that US rate of 20000 was synonoomommous with g.inp?

Ive always sync'd at 20,000 upstream.  Ive never paid much attention to the 79999, 79998 or 79987 etc as I thought it was perhaps just a quirk of the modem/dslam.

These are some of mine

79999 20000  HG612
79987 20000  Zyxel
80000 20000  TP-Link

I thought exactly the same. I bet it was w3 that pointed it out too :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: CarlT on April 08, 2015, 09:56:49 PM
I havent read the specs or links, but if you are referring to the type of vectoring that is performed at the dslam then yes.

The ECI M41's can only do so at line card level. 
The Huaweis at system/shelf level, but I believe they need to install another module into the cabs.

The later is far more efficient.
Seems like BT bought a bit of a dud with the ECI's.  I keep hoping that ECI can find some way of slotting in a module rather than having to replace with a V41.

The Huawei kit needs installation of a Vectoring Processing Engine - basically a card that crunches telemetry supplied by the line cards then sends back the required noise cancellation parameters.

The bottleneck on the ECIs is the backplane, hence the need for a new chassis. The alternative would be to replace all the line cards with cards with their own optical interfaces then connect all the line cards together either directly or via an intermediate card.

The Huawei devices also offer node level vectoring where 2 VPEs are connected via a 40Gb cross-connect with telemetry between cabinets being exchanged on that path.

That 40Gb is required should also give some idea of the backplane capacity needed to do system level vectoring, too.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: HighBeta on April 08, 2015, 11:03:03 PM
Enlightening post thanks Ignitionnet.

I wonder if this would help things for eci/r ?
Code: [Select]
/etc/init.d/ifx_cpe_control_init.sh
#197
xTM_Mgmt_Mode=""
        wanphy_phymode=0:
        BS_ENA=1
        SRA_ENA=1
+++ RETX_ENA=1 ++++       
         CNTL_MODE_ENA=0
         CNTL_MODE=0
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 08, 2015, 11:37:07 PM
Hi Ignitionnet and welcome :)

Thank you for the additional information. I believe I may have been the first to mention (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,13268.msg249932.html#msg249932) that Vectoring could be done on a line card basis when everyone else was saying vectoring on the ECI's was impossible.

Quote
>> The bottleneck on the ECIs is the backplane, hence the need for a new chassis.

my at the time 'dumbed down speak' was "nearest I can equate it to is wanting to add a new PCI card into your PC, but youve run out of PCI slots."


I didnt know much about the Huawei cabs as I'd not personally looked into it & was going off mostly what Asbo had said, but your name had been brought up here (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,13268.msg249986.html#msg249986), so its lovely to see you join us so that you can add your wealth of knowledge to the discussion.

TBH I dont believe that BT would opt for line card vectoring because of its inefficiency, do you have any views what BT may do, or am I asking you to speculate too much?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 08, 2015, 11:44:44 PM
I wonder if this would help things for eci/r ?

I'm waiting to see what TP-Link come back to me with and see if they answer any my further questions and permission to quote because it may give us more of an insight into the problem.  I don't think Im giving away any confidences if I say that Lantiq are involved.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: HighBeta on April 08, 2015, 11:58:25 PM
 infineon ifx_cpe_control_init.sh does catch the eye.....
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: boost on April 09, 2015, 06:48:38 AM
I havent read the specs or links, but if you are referring to the type of vectoring that is performed at the dslam then yes.

The ECI M41's can only do so at line card level. 
The Huaweis at system/shelf level, but I believe they need to install another module into the cabs.

The later is far more efficient.
Seems like BT bought a bit of a dud with the ECI's.  I keep hoping that ECI can find some way of slotting in a module rather than having to replace with a V41.

The Huawei kit needs installation of a Vectoring Processing Engine - basically a card that crunches telemetry supplied by the line cards then sends back the required noise cancellation parameters.

The bottleneck on the ECIs is the backplane, hence the need for a new chassis. The alternative would be to replace all the line cards with cards with their own optical interfaces then connect all the line cards together either directly or via an intermediate card.

The Huawei devices also offer node level vectoring where 2 VPEs are connected via a 40Gb cross-connect with telemetry between cabinets being exchanged on that path.

That 40Gb is required should also give some idea of the backplane capacity needed to do system level vectoring, too.

Interesting, thanks :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 09, 2015, 11:10:37 AM
/etc/init.d/ifx_cpe_control_init.sh
#197
xTM_Mgmt_Mode=""
        wanphy_phymode=0:
        BS_ENA=1
        SRA_ENA=1
+++ RETX_ENA=1 ++++      
         CNTL_MODE_ENA=0
         CNTL_MODE=0


Taken from ITU G.998.4 -  The RE-TX modes that can be set on the DSLAM

Quote
11.1.13 Retransmission Mode (RTX_MODE)
The RTX_MODE is a configuration parameter used to control activation of retransmission during initialization.
This parameter has 4 valid values:

0: RTX_FORBIDDEN: ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission not allowed.
1: RTX_PREFERRED: ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission is preferred by the operator.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability is supported by both XTU's, the XTU's shall select ITU-T G.998.4 operation for this direction).
2: RTX_FORCED: Force the use of the ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability in this direction is not supported by both XTU's or not selected by the XTU's, an initialization failure shall result).
NOTE – Due to the optionality of ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission in upstream direction, the use of RTX_FORCED in upstream may lead to initialization failure, even if the XTU is supporting ITU-T G.998.4 (in downstream).
3: RTX_TESTMODE: Force the use of the ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission in the test mode described in clause 10.4.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability is not supported by both XTU's or not selected by the XTU's, an initialization failure shall result).


In there (Ive highlighted one of them in green) explanation why Modems that don't have the updated firmware would fail to get internet access and the ECI modem Issue 1 situation described on the first page.   So now the ECI modems apparently have RETX enabled, yet it doesnt seem to be able to fully support it?

Turning off DLM stops the DLM system trying to push RTX parameters to the modem which it cant understand, those parameters are used at initialisation to calculate the sync speed and bit loading etc and its why without the fix, the modem would not be able to go through all the stages of initialisation (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_technology.htm#sync)

----------
There's quite a nice paper I've found about RETX management.   Bear in mind its written by ASSIA so techniques may not be quite the same as with the BT system,  It recaps and confirms a few things we already knew but its written so that most people should be able to understand the basics of using RETX in a DLM environment.
http://www.assia-inc.com/products-services/pdf/DSL_Expresse_Retransmission.pdf

DLM can switch over to FEC & Interleave if it detects that ReTX isn't working/keeping the line stable. 
In the case of issue 2  RTX is preferred, but there are cases when it will push over to an Interleave & FEC DLM profile. 
------------

We already know that the system is pushing over to Interleave & FEC for non compliant modems but what is uncertain is if those parameters are too harsh OR  if its something in the DLM being interpreted unexpectedly by these modems. 

Is the 'hybrid solution' causing confusion.   The lines seeing the unexpected latency dont appear to be showing interleaving as having been applied when the ISP runs a line test and unfortunately we cannot see any decent line stats from those particular modems/routers to see exactly what has been applied to know whats going on for those modems.   This is where because of lack of decent stats we are going to have to leave it in the hands of those BT/Latniq bods that can access stats.    Out of interest is there anyone with a hacked ECI modem on a Huawei cab can see any of the usual parameters such as INP etc?

We know with INP we only had figures like INP=3 and by using other parameters such as interleaving depth, then the modem calculated how much Interleave and FEC to apply.  Whereas now we are seeing things like G.INP = 46.   What if its trying to put that say 46 parameter as Interleave & FEC (INP) protection.  46 INP is going to have a ludicrously high ms of noise protection.  Latency is going to rocket and Forward Error Correction overheads will reduce sync speeds dramatically. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 09, 2015, 01:35:11 PM
Has anyone contacted http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/g.inp to correct his errors? The one I spotted was that he says the HH5 works without differentiating 5A/5B.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 09, 2015, 04:42:07 PM
Good post, Kitz.

I missed it the first few times around ... I seem to have a blindness for things in the sticky section - maybe the blue "New" icon just doesn't stand out against the bold blue text of the title and the darker blue background!

Its an interesting notion that the ECI modems will have gone through one firmware upgrade to go from <totally incompatible> to <quite incompatible>, but it certainly seems to be true that a lot are waiting for something more. I had originally thought that it was a problem with the agent failing to update some modems, but this idea probably fits the evidence better.

Have we seen anyone with an ECI modem that appears to have had G.INP activated with no ill effects? Any hint, anywhere? With ECI's being considerably harder to unlock, I imagine we will have a hard time confirming it ... other than the kind of efforts going on via TP-Link.

Quote
I believe someone suggested that US rate of 20000 was synonoomommous with g.inp?

Ive always sync'd at 20,000 upstream.  Ive never paid much attention to the 79999, 79998 or 79987 etc as I thought it was perhaps just a quirk of the modem/dslam.

These are some of mine

79999 20000  HG612
79987 20000  Zyxel
80000 20000  TP-Link

I thought exactly the same. I bet it was w3 that pointed it out too :)

Not me.

I've always thought that the sync ending up a few Kbps short was a quirk - perhaps of the specs, perhaps of the chipsets. My best guess surrounds the algorithm that decides on bit-loading - that it just stops when the next addition would take you over the limit, leaving you on or just under. It might be even worse if following some water-filling technique.

Having seen this quirk happen often enough, I wouldn't bother looking for non-quirks in G.INP. Until recently, there have been too few reports to draw real conclusions.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 09, 2015, 06:15:25 PM
I've heard back from TP-Link

The Lantiq chipset supports G.INP but it seems like there is a compatibility issue.  This is now in the hands of TP-Link R&D (which iirc is in China) who are jointly working on this with Lantiq.

My contact is quite high up when it comes to UK technical development but as this is now in the hands of R&D, he wasn't able to give any first hand answers to my questions. However, he said he will try and get me an update and he will keep me informed of any developments.

So at least TP-link are on to it.  Presumably if Lantiq are also involved then there may be hope for the ECI/HH5A too, but that is an assumption on my part so dont take it as gospel as that will entirely depend on BT. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 09, 2015, 06:50:34 PM

Its an interesting notion that the ECI modems will have gone through one firmware upgrade to go from <totally incompatible> to <quite incompatible>, but it certainly seems to be true that a lot are waiting for something more. I had originally thought that it was a problem with the agent failing to update some modems, but this idea probably fits the evidence better.

If it hadn't received an update then it wouldn't sync at all.   
There are 2 separate issues and people are getting the two mixed up.  As regards to the higher latency/reduction in speed - If an engineer is called out and you can manage him to do a DLM reset, it will be ok for a day or so whilst there is no DLM, but as soon as the DLM open profile period has expired you will be back in exactly the same situation.   
The main reason I started this separate thread and try clarify it, is people were misquoting / misunderstanding information in the old thread. :(

Quote
Have we seen anyone with an ECI modem that appears to have had G.INP activated with no ill effects? Any hint, anywhere? With ECI's being considerably harder to unlock

No not a single one, nor a HH5A nor TD W9980 so far has come to light. At the moment it does seem to be isolated to all modems using the same SoC on the Lantiq VRX-268. *

Quote
I imagine we will have a hard time confirming it ... other than the kind of efforts going on via TP-Link.

The lack of stats available on all 3 of those modem/routers are making it rather difficult..  and there will be an awful lot of ECI modem users who probably wont even notice anyway.

I don't know how the guys with unlocked ECI's are doing, because at least they can access some stats so it would be good if any of them can report their findings please.


---
ETA.. Oh forgot to add... and the HG612s with old f/w
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 11, 2015, 01:50:21 PM
Just seen a post on the Plusnet forums about the TP-Link W9980: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138451.0.html

Summary: the poster has been working with TP-Link's tech support and testing new firmware. He now has a version that works with G.INP with no loss of latency.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on April 11, 2015, 01:52:27 PM
So if I've had an FTTC cabinet installed in the last two weeks or so, does that mean I'll have G.INP as soon as I go live?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 11, 2015, 01:57:07 PM
Is the cabinet a Huawei or an ECI? If it's Huawei it will have G.INP enabled. ECI - not known.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Tazz on April 11, 2015, 02:30:18 PM
I have a HH5 and saw that i could no longer get max sync... found this thread  :fingers: they roll out an update soon. I am running an unlocked Huawei at the moment with the latest SP08 which is back to full sync :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 11, 2015, 04:17:51 PM
I have a HH5 and saw that i could no longer get max sync... found this thread  :fingers: they roll out an update soon. I am running an unlocked Huawei at the moment with the latest SP08 which is back to full sync :)

b*cat nods. There seems to have been nothing but problems with the Beattie HH5, right from the day when it was first released. No sooner is one problem resolved than another appears.  :-X

From what I have read, when the HH5 is used just as a router (ignoring its inbuilt VDSL2 modem) with, say, an HG612 to provide the VDSL2 - Ethernet bridge then the performance is quite acceptable.  ::)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: JHewess on April 11, 2015, 05:44:09 PM
Hi all,
Just popped over here to advise an update re my W9980 now working with g.inp, but I see jelv has beat me to it.
I'll re-post the link though, just to save me having to re-type my post: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138451.0.html

I'm still in contact with TP-Link, so as soon as I know anything more concrete re a proper release date of the beta firmware I'll shout.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 11, 2015, 06:26:37 PM
I see a certain AndyH just had to make a posting to your thread . . .  ::)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 11, 2015, 06:27:51 PM
Just seen a post on the Plusnet forums about the TP-Link W9980: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138451.0.html

Summary: the poster has been working with TP-Link's tech support and testing new firmware. He now has a version that works with G.INP with no loss of latency.

Thanks jelv,  w23 and welcome JHewess.  :)

Looking good.  :thumbs:  I'm due a reply back from tp-link early next week too.  This is looking quite hopeful. 

If TP-link working with Lantiq have found the cause of the "incompatibility" then it should also perhaps be possible to roll out a similar firmware upgrade for the ECI's and HH's.  That would depend on BT though.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Tyke on April 12, 2015, 09:16:30 AM
So just to be clear, are ALL Huawei DSLAMs getting the upgrade or not, I am a bit confused. I am on Huawei, and definitely do not have it at the moment.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 12, 2015, 09:32:54 AM
So just to be clear, are ALL Huawei DSLAMs getting the upgrade or not, I am a bit confused. I am on Huawei, and definitely do not have it at the moment.

It seems there are 2 Huawei DSLAM firmware & chipset versions in use now.
However, both versions do seem able to deliver G.INP.


Which are you connected to?

Telnet command xdslcmd info --vendor or adsl info --vendor should confirm.


Not having G.INP COULD be due to the firmware and/or software versions of the modem you are currently using.
I know you have tried a few different modems quite recently.
Which are you currently using & what are its firmware & software versions?


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Tyke on April 12, 2015, 09:50:04 AM
So just to be clear, are ALL Huawei DSLAMs getting the upgrade or not, I am a bit confused. I am on Huawei, and definitely do not have it at the moment.

It seems there are 2 Huawei DSLAM firmware & chipset versions in use now.
However, both versions do seem able to deliver G.INP.


Which are you connected to?

Telnet command xdslcmd info --vendor or adsl info --vendor should confirm.


Not having G.INP COULD be due to the firmware and/or software versions of the modem you are currently using.
I know you have tried a few different modems quite recently.
Which are you currently using & what are its firmware & software versions?
I am currently on a Zyxel 8924 with V8 Beta 2 firmware.
Telnet info is:
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 19396 Kbps, Downstream rate = 78668 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19396 Kbps, Downstream rate = 63729 Kbps

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa451
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa451
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 12, 2015, 10:00:21 AM
From your stats, it now looks like there are 3 Huawei DSLAM versions in use:-


Mine:-
ChipSet Vendor Id:     BDCM:0xa44f
ChipSet VersionNumber: 0xa44f

Yours:-
ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa451
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa451


One I saw yesterday:-
ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485


Only yours isn't using G.INP.

Is anyone else using a ZyXel 8924 with the same V8 Beta 2 firmware as Tyke that is actually using G.INP?


EDIT:

Typo corrected for the 3rd DSLAM details
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Tyke on April 12, 2015, 10:11:25 AM
From your stats, it now looks like there are 3 Huawei DSLAM versions in use:-


Mine:-
ChipSet Vendor Id:     BDCM:0xa44f
ChipSet VersionNumber: 0xa44f

Yours:-
ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa451
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa451


One I saw yesterday:-
ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa458
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa458


Only yours isn't using G.INP.

Is anyone else using a ZyXel 8924 with the same V8 Beta 2 firmware as Tyke that is actually using G.INP?

I know that I was connected directly to the exchange when I has ADSL.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: vic0239 on April 12, 2015, 11:16:53 AM
From your stats, it now looks like there are 3 Huawei DSLAM versions in use:-

Same here:

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa451
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa451

Cabinet installed in the last few months and G.INP on the line.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: andy265 on April 12, 2015, 11:30:15 AM
One I saw yesterday:-
ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa458
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa458

Don't know if that's a typo or there's a 4th, as I have

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485

G.INP is active on my line.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 12, 2015, 12:42:34 PM
One I saw yesterday:-
ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa458
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa458

Don't know if that's a typo or there's a 4th, as I have

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485



It was indeed a typo (now corrected).
Thanks for mentioning it.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitzuser87430 on April 12, 2015, 05:26:12 PM
Quote
are ALL Huawei DSLAMs getting the upgrade or not, I am a bit confused. I am on Huawei, and definitely do not have it at the moment.

Same here....on a connection I manage the pppoe uptime >72 Days on locked ECI modem and huawei cab (228 port)

Ping graph still showing no increase (23ms approx average)

I have a couple of unlocked hg612's here to swap out...if end users notice a problem when (if) g.inp is enabled.

Ian
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 12, 2015, 09:37:23 PM
Quote
Is anyone else using a ZyXel 8924 with the same V8 Beta 2 firmware as Tyke that is actually using G.INP?

There's something weird happening on Aardvarks line.   I noticed the other day after reading his thread,  but havent had chance to look properly again.   He did have G.INP, but since the engineer reset his line over a week ago, he seems to have nothing.


If it wasnt for the fact that he's already put the HG612 on a couple of times and irrc he said sync was about 5Mb worse on the HG612 then I'd ask him to do so again..  but Im scared of it making his line worse than what it is.

---------
ETA

Aardvark, I just thought - you do have HowlingWolf's firmware SP08 on the HG612?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: AArdvark on April 12, 2015, 10:26:18 PM
Kitz,

Just noticed this on my phone.

Yes I have the latest HowlingWolf's firmware SP08 on the HG612.
You have raised one of the points I am chasing with Plusnet and getting no answer to.

I will poke them with a sharp stick tomorrow and see if they deign to answer any of my questions.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 13, 2015, 09:54:17 AM
TP-LINK RELEASES BETA G.INP FIRMWARE.

TP-Link has released beta firmware for the TD-W9980 which hopefully includes a fix for the G.INP problem.

More information and Download from this thread
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15322.0.html
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: HighBeta on April 14, 2015, 04:45:16 PM
I don't know how the guys with unlocked ECI's are doing, because at least they can access some stats so it would be good if any of them can report their findings please.

Think most of the unlocked eci users are on eci cabs  although Kronos_2001 maybe on a Huawei.

My personnel view is the default configs in older versions of ifx-dsl-cpe files have the bRetTXEnable boolean set to False in instead of True & also missing RETX_ENA=1 in xTM_Mgmt_Mode as posted a few pages back. The  etc/ rc.conf files could also do with a tweaking.

If its the above , it can be fixed  - Just a question of "if" with bt ... :paperbag:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ps Those of us on aaisp appreciate the time/effort with this thread & even if certain pn users think your posts are ""irrelevant"  :-X ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on April 14, 2015, 05:22:55 PM
Is the cabinet a Huawei or an ECI? If it's Huawei it will have G.INP enabled. ECI - not known.

It's a full-size the large Huawei 288 cabinet


-------
Edited by admin to avoid confusion with full size Huawei MSANs
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 14, 2015, 06:17:21 PM
Quote
Think most of the unlocked eci users are on eci cabs  although Kronos_2001 maybe on a Huawei.

OK thanks for that HB, so I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens when BT roll out to the ECI cabs.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: stevebrass on April 14, 2015, 08:16:24 PM
At the moment I am running a HG612 (unlocked with latest firmware via Howling Wolf). I have a HH5A and locked ECI modem available.

Out of the three the HG612 gives the best DS/US and ping.

My cabinet is ECI. When/If G.inp gets enabled on my cabinet I will do some swapping around and compare results.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 14, 2015, 08:22:18 PM
Thanks steve.   In theory the HH5A should give similar results to the ECI modem.  At least you can get some minimal amount of stats out of the HH5A.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 15, 2015, 12:17:24 AM
Ive had a little more info from TP-Link and they seem quite happy with the way things are progressing.  They are still investigating & testing with a couple of our members, but they are hoping to get an official f/w release out quite soon.  Thanks those that posted their stats in the relevant thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15322.0.html)

I believe that the issue is with the underlying Lantiq firmware not open ReTX properly.   Whatever that means or how deep in the f/w I dont know.

Kudos to TP-link at their speed at taking this onboard, dealing with this so quickly and being pro-active with us.   :)
Title: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: mikelj on April 15, 2015, 07:59:22 AM
Hi, first time poster guys; I'm hoping to get some advice.

Basically, my cabinet was updated a couple of weeks ago (Broadcom chipset so I assume a Huawei cabinet). At the time I was using a Vigor 130 modem (with Apple Time Capsule) and initially things appeared fine, or at least no worst (the Vigor has limited statistics, it reported Interleaving plus a depth of 1). After around a week, it was obvious that the Vigor wasn't working correctly with G.INP (around a 15 Mbps drop in speed). I replaced the Vigor with my HH 5A, which initially improved things, but again after around a week I was suffering the same speed loss.

I'm now using a Billion 8800NL, but the question I have is roughly how long will I need to wait for my speed to recover? Normally I'd be patient but I'm currently getting Infinity 1 speeds but paying for Infinity 2, so I'm wondering whether I should attempt to get BT to perform a DLM reset or should I just wait for DLM to loosen its grip.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 15, 2015, 09:29:28 AM
I dont know.    Ive seen some lines recover instantly, yet others take a couple of days. 

It seems to make a difference if the line has been rate banded by the DLM. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: mikelj on April 15, 2015, 10:41:57 AM
Thanks. I'll leave it a few days then and see how it goes.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 15, 2015, 04:22:21 PM
It's a full-size the large Huawei 288 cabinet


-------
Edited by admin to avoid confusion with full size Huawei MSANs

Equipped with a Huawei SmartAX MA5603 MSAN.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 18, 2015, 09:53:05 PM
Where do I find he chipset information on the HG612?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 18, 2015, 09:56:25 PM
It should be shown in a snapshot montage in any of the subfolders of Current_Stats.

It should also be shown at the bottom of any of the Plink Logs (also  in any of the subfolders of Current_Stats).

xdslcmd --version
xdslcmd version 1.0
DSL PHY: AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
******* Pass *********


equipcmd swversion display
software version: V100R001C01B030SP08
xdsl firmware version: A2pv6C038m.d24j
cpu version: BCM6368
cfe version: 1.0.37-102.6
display version success
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 18, 2015, 10:02:44 PM
or by using the telnet command

xdslcmd info --vendor
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 18, 2015, 10:04:14 PM
 :-[ I don't think I posed the question correctly! I meant the remote information (as given in http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284754.html#msg284754)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 18, 2015, 10:07:17 PM
or by using the telnet command

xdslcmd info --vendor

I think I'm missing something when telnetted in:

Welcome Visiting Huawei  Home Gateway
Copyright by Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.
Login:admin
Password:
ATP>xdslcmd info --vendor
    ^
ATP>
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 18, 2015, 10:07:44 PM
The next update will include it in the places I mentioned above (due any day now).

In the meantime, you can get it via telnet command xdslcmd info --vendor

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 18, 2015, 10:09:32 PM
or by using the telnet command

xdslcmd info --vendor

I think I'm missing something when telnetted in:

Welcome Visiting Huawei  Home Gateway
Copyright by Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.
Login:admin
Password:
ATP>xdslcmd info --vendor
    ^
ATP>


There is another step for these modems.

Type sh at the ATP> prompt

Then you can type the xdslcmd commands


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 18, 2015, 10:13:49 PM
Thanks:

# xdslcmd info --vendor
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 42685 Kbps, Downstream rate = 125020 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485
ChipSet SerialNumber:


What are we in and what can we do when we are at the ATP prompt?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 18, 2015, 10:29:50 PM
Type sh to get into the shell

Oh sorry, I may have misunderstood the question https://huaweihg612hacking.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/the-atp-cli-and-equipcmd/
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 18, 2015, 10:31:18 PM
What are we in and what can we do when we are at the ATP prompt?


Don't know & don't know  :o (other than typing display login to show what is currently logged in to the modem).

Here's where HG612_stats was logged in (for 1 second) as well as being logged in via a telnet session (for 1 minute & 11 seconds):-

ATP>display login

=============================
User Name     : admin
Login IP      : 192.168.1.100
Login Time    : 2015-04-18 22:29:01
Login TimeLen : 1(Secs)

=============================
User Name     : admin
Login IP      : 192.168.1.100
Login Time    : 2015-04-18 22:27:51
Login TimeLen : 1(Mins) 11(Secs)

ATP>
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 18, 2015, 10:38:20 PM
Thanks:

# xdslcmd info --vendor
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 42685 Kbps, Downstream rate = 125020 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485
ChipSet SerialNumber:


What are we in and what can we do when we are at the ATP prompt?

Where is your Bearer 1 Jelv don't you have G.INP activated on your line ?

# xdslcmd info --vendor
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 7206 Kbps, Downstream rate = 32060 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 7255 Kbps, Downstream rate = 33082 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa44f
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa44f
ChipSet SerialNumber:
#
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 18, 2015, 10:54:58 PM
Where is your Bearer 1 Jelv don't you have G.INP activated on your line ?

Do I need to send out the search party?

Not having much of a clue with FTTC two possibilities come to mind:

1. This is a brand new cab - I went live on Tuesday and I was the first user - might it not be enabled on the cab?
2. My line is so good it doesn't need error correction?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 18, 2015, 11:10:43 PM
Do I need to send out the search party?

Not having much of a clue with FTTC two possibilities come to mind:

1. This is a brand new cab - I went live on Tuesday and I was the first user - might it not be enabled on the cab?
2. My line is so good it doesn't need error correction?

Anwser to no. 1 it's possible
Anwser to no. 2 yes it is the best i have seen yet on fttc but g.inp does not discriminate a good line over a bad line it's either enabled or it's not even though you have good sync at the moment it won't last to long unless vectoring is enable before you see crosstalk  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 18, 2015, 11:40:01 PM
It would be interesting to see if g.inp is enabled on other recently installed cabs. Is it possible that BT have stopped the rollout to Huawei once they finally realised how many people were being adversely affected?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 18, 2015, 11:42:40 PM
How long has your G.INP-enabled modem been connected?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 19, 2015, 12:07:00 AM
I've only got HG612 modems. The one supplied by BT was put in on Tuesday, I swapped to the unlocked one around 11am Saturday morning.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 19, 2015, 06:50:18 AM
Assuming your DSLAM has been updated, there's every possibility that your connection will be switched to G.INP today (if it hasn't already done so).


Looking at this data, your DSLAM appears to be one of the newer ones:-

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485

These DSLAM versions are being updated, but from other users' reports, it seems they may have updated more recently than the original 0xa44f versions.


As mentioned earlier, we still don't know for sure that ALL connections are having G.INP applied or if it is only those that 'need' it.

Your connection appears to have lots of spare capacity, so it will be interesting to be informed whether G.INP does get applied at some stage.


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 19, 2015, 10:19:13 AM
Then you also have lines like Aardvarks.  His line was g.inped originally, but now has been running for over 2 weeks without after an engineers reset.
We know that usually a reset does not permanently clear g.inp and there have been several examples where it returned after the usual 2 day open profile period.   

I wonder if in view of the recent problems they have stopped applying g.inp to any new or reset lines.


They may have finally twigged that engineers are issuing ECI modems to Huawei cabs (as would have been the case with jelv's install if he hadn't been aware of the situation) and that an awful lot of engineers were only carrying ECI's and decided to stop applying the g.inp profiles to any new/reset lines after 'x' date.   The ECI cab g.inp roll out seems to have also ground to a halt.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 19, 2015, 10:42:52 AM
Just nosing around the shell and found this:

# xdslcmd profile --show

Modulations:
        G.Dmt   Enabled
        G.lite  Disabled
        T1.413  Disabled
        ADSL2   Enabled
        AnnexL  Disabled
        ADSL2+  Enabled
        AnnexM  Disabled
        VDSL2   Enabled
VDSL2 profiles:
        8a      Enabled
        8b      Enabled
        8c      Enabled
        8d      Enabled
        12a     Enabled
        12b     Enabled
        17a     Enabled
        30a     Enabled
        US0     Enabled
Phone line pair:
        Inner pair
Capability:
        bitswap         On
        sra             On
        trellis         On
        sesdrop         Off
        CoMinMgn        Off
        24k             On
        phyReXmt(Us/Ds) Off/On
        TpsTc           AvPvAa
        monitorTone:    On
        dynamicD:       On
        dynamicF:       Off
        SOS:            On
        Training Margin(Q4 in dB):      -1(DEFAULT)


Still nothing showing for bearer 1
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on April 19, 2015, 11:00:55 AM
That command doesn't show the G.INP status. You can see the presence (or not) of Bearer 1 in xdslcmd info.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 19, 2015, 11:56:08 AM
I know - I checked

# xdslcmd info --vendor
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 42458 Kbps, Downstream rate = 125020 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485
ChipSet SerialNumber:


just before I posted. It was the line

phyReXmt(Us/Ds) Off/On

that caught my eye.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on April 19, 2015, 01:09:28 PM
I see, yes. I just checked mine (8800NL with G.INP enabled) and it shows the same line

phyReXmt(Us/Ds) Off/On

It's under the heading "Capability", so I guess it means that the firmware is configured to support PhyReX, but it doesn't say anything about whether it's enabled.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 19, 2015, 02:13:14 PM
Thats the configuration setting for the modem itself.  It is not an indication that g.inp is working on the line.
I can change these settings from the webGUI (see below)   

Mine is the same and I definitely don't have G.INP enabled yet.

Code: [Select]
> adsl profile --show

Modulations:
        G.Dmt   Enabled
        G.lite  Enabled
        T1.413  Enabled
        ADSL2   Enabled
        AnnexL  Enabled
        ADSL2+  Enabled
        AnnexM  Disabled
        VDSL2   Enabled
VDSL2 profiles:
        8a      Enabled
        8b      Enabled
        8c      Enabled
        8d      Enabled
        12a     Enabled
        12b     Enabled
        17a     Enabled
        30a     Enabled
        US0     Enabled
Phone line pair:
        Inner pair
Capability:
        bitswap         On
        sra             On
        trellis         On
        sesdrop         Off
        CoMinMgn        Off
        24k             On
        phyReXmt(Us/Ds) Off/On
        TpsTc           AvPvAaPa
        monitorTone:    On
        dynamicD:       On
        dynamicF:       Off
        SOS:            On
        Training Margin(Q4 in dB):      -1(DEFAULT)
 >

iirc there was someone recently who had to physically change it on their Billion before g.inp became available to them.
Both the modem and the dslam will have that setting, but g.inp wont be active until both dslam and modem are set to ON.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on April 19, 2015, 03:08:27 PM
Here's the equivalent on the Billion 8800NL:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 19, 2015, 03:22:53 PM
after having a look at those setting the users seems to have turned off phyr on the US is there a reason for that as it deffo helps with my upstream errors.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on April 19, 2015, 03:39:55 PM
after having a look at those setting the users seems to have turned off phyr on the US is there a reason for that as it deffo helps with my upstream errors.

thats the default setting on the HG612
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on April 19, 2015, 03:55:34 PM
It's the default on the Billion too, but it's made me think. I'll try turning it on.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 19, 2015, 05:46:11 PM
Assuming your DSLAM has been updated, there's every possibility that your connection will be switched to G.INP today (if it hasn't already done so).


Looking at this data, your DSLAM appears to be one of the newer ones:-

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485

These DSLAM versions are being updated, but from other users' reports, it seems they may have updated more recently than the original 0xa44f versions.


As mentioned earlier, we still don't know for sure that ALL connections are having G.INP applied or if it is only those that 'need' it.

Your connection appears to have lots of spare capacity, so it will be interesting to be informed whether G.INP does get applied at some stage.

Still no bearer 1!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 19, 2015, 05:59:53 PM
I've just spotted something else (highlighted in red):

Usage: xdslcmd start [--up] <configure command options>
       xdslcmd stop
       xdslcmd connection [--up] [--down] [--loopback] [--reverb]
           [--medley] [--noretrain] [--L3] [--diagmode] [--L0]
           [--tones <r1-r2,r3-r4,...>] [--normal] [--freezeReverb] [--freezeMedley]
       xdslcmd configure/configure1 [--mod <a|d|l|t|2|p|e|m|M3|M5|v>] [--lpair <(i)nner|(o)uter>]
           [--trellis <on|off>] [--snr <snrQ4>] [--bitswap <on|off>] [--sesdrop <on|off>]
           [--sra <on|off>] [--CoMinMgn <on|off>] [--i24k <on|off>] [--phyReXmt <0xBitMap-UsDs>]
          [--Ginp <0xBitMap-UsDs>] [--TpsTc <0xBitMap-AvPvAaPa>] [--monitorTone <on|off>]
           [--profile <0x00 - 0xFF>|<"8a |8b |8c |8d |12a |12b |17a |30a">] [--us0 <on|off>]
           [--dynamicD <on|off>] [--dynamicF <on|off>] [--SOS <on|off>] [--maxDataRate <maxDsDataRateKbps maxUsDataRateKbps maxAggrDataRateKbps>]
           [--forceJ43 <on|off>] [--toggleJ43B43 <on|off>]
       xdslcmd bert [--start <#seconds>] [--stop] [--show]
       xdslcmd afelb [--time <sec>] [--tones] [--signal <1/2/8>]
       xdslcmd qlnmntr [--time <sec>] [--freq <msec>]
       xdslcmd inm [--start <INMIATO> <INMIATS><INMCC><INM_INPEQ_MODE><INM_INPEQ_FORMAT>] [--show]
       xdslcmd snrclamp [--shape <shapeId>] [--bpshape [bpIndex-bpLevel,]]
       xdslcmd nlnm [--show ] [--setThld <Thld_Num_Tones>]
       xdslcmd diag [--logstart <nBytes>] [--logpause] [--logstop] [--loguntilbufferfull <nBytes>] [--loguntilretrain <nBytes>] [--dumpBuf <sizeKb>]
       xdslcmd info [--state] [--show] [--stats] [--SNR] [--QLN] [--Hlog] [--Hlin] [--HlinS] [--Bits]
           [--pbParams] [--linediag] [--linediag1] [--reset] [--vendor] [--cfg]
       xdslcmd profile [--show] [--save] [--restore]
       xdslcmd --version
       xdslcmd --help


I was actually looking for how to turn it on on the upstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 19, 2015, 06:15:45 PM
Look guys & girls you have misinterpreted my post asking why the PhyR is turn off in the US as we don't have the capability of turning on via the HG612 the post was for the 8800NL user  :P
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 19, 2015, 06:28:04 PM
That usage output from jelv suggests something - that PhyR gets configured separately from Ginp.

When I've been trying to figure out my G.INP setup here, I have reached the conclusion that it is configured for both upstream and downstream. Yet the configuration screenshot matches @NewtronStar's (ie PhyR is on for downstream, and off for upstream), and the "adsl profile --show" output matches both jelv and Kitz.

Perhaps the settings we've seen ("phyReXmt(Us/Ds) Off/On") doesn't actually apply to G.INP.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on April 19, 2015, 06:55:18 PM
I enabled G.INP on the upstream in my 8800NL, and now the phyR configuration is changed:

 
Code: [Select]
> adsl profile --show

Modulations:
        G.Dmt   Disabled
        G.lite  Disabled
        T1.413  Disabled
        ADSL2   Disabled
        AnnexL  Disabled
        ADSL2+  Disabled
        AnnexM  Disabled
        VDSL2   Enabled
VDSL2 profiles:
        8a      Enabled
        8b      Enabled
        8c      Enabled
        8d      Enabled
        12a     Enabled
        12b     Enabled
        17a     Enabled
        US0     Enabled
Phone line pair:
        Inner pair
Capability:
        bitswap         On
        sra             On
        trellis         On
        sesdrop         Off
        CoMinMgn        Off
        24k             On
        phyReXmt(Us/Ds) On/On
        TpsTc           AvPvAa
        monitorTone:    On
        dynamicD:       On
        dynamicF:       Off
        SOS:            On
        Training Margin(Q4 in dB):      -1(DEFAULT)
 >

So there is certainly a link.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 19, 2015, 06:56:56 PM
What did you do to enable G.INP upstream?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on April 19, 2015, 08:15:18 PM
I've realised I was talking nonsense (sorry). It was phyR I enabled. :-[
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 20, 2015, 09:05:26 PM
I'm still seeing

# xdslcmd info --vendor
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 41802 Kbps, Downstream rate = 122084 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa485
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa485
ChipSet SerialNumber:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on April 20, 2015, 09:33:58 PM
Could it be that the rollout has been suspended until the present G.INP problems are resolved?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 20, 2015, 10:58:34 PM
Could it be that the rollout has been suspended until the present G.INP problems are resolved?

We just don't know but why would OR just suddenly suspend the g.inp rollout for eci cabs and newer cabs just because the ECI modem is at the moment incompatible, to me that would be an unethical stance for a large business like OprenReach the ECI modems can still access the internet after the fix (no DSL communication on a Huawei cabinet) there has to more to it than just a modem incompatibility issue with g.inp.

But for shure with ClosedReach we will never know the real answer, it will just start working as it should without any explanation
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 20, 2015, 11:14:52 PM
to me that would be an unethical stance for a large business like OprenReach the ECI modems can still access the internet after the fix (no DSL communication on a Huawei cabinet) there has to more to it than a just modem incompatabiliy with g.inp.

I guess the place you will see the impact is in the call centres of the ISPs. If they are fielding a large increase in volume of calls because of this, you can bet they'll be demanding (through BTW if needed) that Openreach halts the rollout. Support is a substantial cost to the ISPs.

Openreach themselves will feel it through the number of calls to their engineers ... which feeds back into the delays for appointments. If extra callouts makes for them failing to meet their SLA targets, they'd be choosing to stop the rollout by themselves.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 20, 2015, 11:41:09 PM
But WWWombat the G.INP has been a success for me and many millions of users on the huawie cabinet with a modem thats capable, why stop or halt others on a ECI cabinet from benefiting from g.inp it's bizarre to say the least.

There could be an ECI line thats enabled to-morrow on MDWS and if so i'll crack open a case of beer to celebrate  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 21, 2015, 01:53:41 AM
Look at it this way:

If they keep the rollout going, there's lots of upside (the success cases), but lots of downside (the failures), and a likely increase in support calls because of the failures.

If they stop the rollout, there is no more upside, but no more downside either.

In this case, the extra upside doesn't bring them any extra income. However, the downside just adds costs. And, if it happens enough, it overwhelms the carefully-dimensioned call-centre staff rotas (of the ISPs), leading to unhappy customers who have real problems.

Under such circumstances, I could see some desire to minimise the downsides, temporarily, even if that curtailed the upsides too. If the problem became really bad, I could see someone demanding the change be backed out. I have, in the past, spent an hour at 6am backing out a change we'd just spent the night working on ... because it wasn't working quite well enough. Telcos tend to be Conservative with a capital C.

But ... none of us know for sure. It is all speculation about what might be happening.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 21, 2015, 02:54:21 AM
We dont even know if its halted, BS said the rollout would start during Q1, not at the start of Q1.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 21, 2015, 07:19:58 AM
I also regularly check our library of comms regarding this subject, and there appears to be no change to what I originally quoted.

<Caveat> Unless something's happening at a higher level that I don't have access to ?.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 21, 2015, 08:29:02 AM
Do you have the ability to look to see if a specific cabinet has been enabled (STMERE-3)?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 21, 2015, 09:32:25 AM
Quote
<Caveat> Unless something's happening at a higher level that I don't have access to ?.

I tend to agree with wombat on this.  It wouldnt make financial sense to continue rolling this out if there is a problem thats causing lots of man-hours for the ISPs and no doubt engineer call outs from EU's wanting to know why in some cases theyve lost quite large chunks of speed.

BT have gone very quiet and they arent even telling the ISPs anything.  Ive made a couple of enquiries but drawn a blank.

My gut feeling is that they will have temporarily suspended any further roll outs until theyve found a fix or work around for the ECI modems and HH5A's.
It was only 2 days after the start of the Huawei rollout that we started seeing people start noticing the overnight outages when the dslam was updated.   Weve not seen anything so far for the ECI's.

It may also be that a DLM reset is now totally removing g.inp.     In the early days of the issue, a DLM reset would not stick and g.inp returned after 2 days of open profile.   Yet Aarvark's line previously ginped™ and reset 2 weeks ago after a line fault, still hasnt seen any signs of g.inp again despite using 2 different g.inp modem/routers.   I would like to see more cases of this though before I draw any conclusions on the latter.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 21, 2015, 01:16:37 PM
Do you have the ability to look to see if a specific cabinet has been enabled (STMERE-3)?

Alas, no. Once upon-a-day, we were given up to the minute info as to what was going 'live', and when. I used to share this info on here. But in their infinite wisdom, the upper-echelon decided to remove that info from our mailing list  :no: :-\ ::)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 22, 2015, 02:14:40 AM
Had to register just to say thanks for such a great and informative thread  :thumbs:

I guess I'm pretty much typical in that last week I noticed a drop in my speeds. But mine were coupled with some contractors turning up to replace the telegraph pole outside our house. We live on the side of a steep hill and it has been leaning for some years now and each year it gets inspected. Finally back in January we got notice that it would be replaced in the next 10 days (yeah, go figure!) and I was dreading the day.

I work from home, permanently, and internet is critical for me as I manage a virtual infrastructure remotely. I had previously had a rock solid sync rate of 80001 d/l since FTTC came to the town in October 2014. So I was dreading some grease monkey pulling that pole out of the ground. And of course, my fears came true. Initially I noticed them packing up to leave so I stuck my head out the window and asked when my line would be back on. I was of course greeted with the expected puzzled looks, phone calls and the ladder coming back out the van. 20 mins later we're back up and running and "yeah, sorry, these new modules are crap" comment. next day someone else goes up the pole and the line goes off again, a similar story takes place.

So don't get me wrong 80Mbit as it was is fine, 59Mbit as it became is still pretty good but it irked me that I'd lost 25% and yet was still paying 100% so I contacted Zen (my ISP) who were OK but I'll admit not as great as usual. I do remember them saying something about waiting on a firmware upgrade from BT but it still didn't seem right.

Bear in mind through all of this I'm on an ECI modem that is locked so the only way I can see my sync rate is from Zen's portal "line data" and right now, that is no longer updating since the 59079 rate. Today, I look out the window and spot another chap up the pole. These modules must be really poor! I wonder across the road and explain my (roughly) 20Mbit drop and he says he'll take a look and join the wires directly.

So now from d/l rates on speed checker's I think I'l back to around 70Mbit, so I'm hunting around for further info and if I'm honest, I think I have arrived at the conclusion that I'm probably now also effected by G.INP. I can see that totally unrelated to the 'pole' incident my line went down to 71858 on 31st March.

I've put a cheeky punt on a Huwai VDSL modem on eBay but beyond that there's not much I can do but keep an eye on things on here.

I never intended to spend the evening reading up on this but I'm glad I did.

Unfortunately only last year my ADSL router gave up and I bought a TP-Link 8980, otherwise I'd probably go and buy a 9890 as I do link TP-Link's service. Will sit tight for now though.

Sorry for the rambling reply...

[EDIT] Oh, no idea what kit is in our green box. Now I've also seen the pictures I may take a walk at the weekend. I know where the box is...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 22, 2015, 02:20:30 AM
Are you connected to a Huawei cabinet or an ECI cabinet?

That's the key question.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 22, 2015, 02:23:00 AM
Yeah, will take a wonder when I get 5 minutes.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 22, 2015, 07:23:01 AM
I can only comment on the modules the other guys mentioned, and is really just for info purposes.

My own personal view is, they aren't as good as the old-style screw terminations. The new ones are a 'push-fit', and as such the engineer has no idea whether the made connection is good or not ??
 
On 0.4mm Aluminium DP feeds (IE: The bigger cable running up the pole to the block, from the underground box), we have historically had massive issues with poor terminations and the wires will just pull out of the module with ease. The work-around is to 'Crimp' a short length of 0.5mm jumper-wire to the Ali, then use this to terminate into the module.

As I say, I couldn't possibly comment on if you do have an issue with the modules or not, only an on-site engineer could do that. Oh, and welcome to the forums, Martin.  ;D ;D
 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 22, 2015, 08:19:14 AM
Bear in mind through all of this I'm on an ECI modem that is locked so the only way I can see my sync rate is from Zen's portal "line data"

A reminder that, if you are on a BT Wholesale backhaul, then you can find out your sync speed another way.

Run a speedtest on the BT Wholesale speedtester. At the end, when it offers the extra diagnostics, select those, enter your phone number and run the tests. The page updates to include your speedtest results, but more importantly, it shows your IP profile speeds. Ignore the upstream one (it always reads your full package speed), but look at the downstream speed.

Your downstream sync speed will be 3.3% higher than the profile speed.

I work from home, permanently, and internet is critical for me as I manage a virtual infrastructure remotely.

Time for a backup connection mechanism - A PAYG 4G connection perhaps, depending on your coverage at home?

If so, you might want to consider something like the Billion 8800AXL modem, which includes the ability to fall back onto 4G. Or a standalone modem that you can switch to.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 22, 2015, 11:47:02 AM
I had a drive past the box on my way back from somewhere earlier. It looks like we have one of the small Huawei 96/128 boxes. Bearing in mind the high proportion of elderly in this area that makes sense (I guess).

I haven't really considered a backup. I usually keep backup kit but other than that my backup, if things are going to be down for any more than a day is to get in the car and do the 4h drive to the office - anything up to a day, it's a welcome break ;D

As far as mobile goes, it's terrible. Our house is situated right between two masts and flips between them all the time. Until the day the pole got switched over I had never even seen 4G anywhere I have been in the UK but that day as my internet was down I had the phone off the wireless and I noticed that the weaker of the two masts is now showing 4G. But sadly only 1 or 2 bars if I'm upstairs. The stronger mast (full reception) is 3G. And it keeps flipping between the two which is annoying. When we moved in I was with Vodfaone and they had the cheek to suggest I should not have bought the house (the weaker mast would not give me reception at all at the time so I kept losing mobile altogether). Needless to say I bought out of that contract and am no longer with them!

Anyway, I digress. We're on Huawei cab, ECI modem.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 22, 2015, 11:58:18 AM
You should definitely get a modem that supports G.INP. The difference is very worthwhile.

Did you know that EE have just enabled wifi calling, and Vodafone will do in the summer?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 22, 2015, 12:33:59 PM
Thanks Dray.

I meant to add that I just did a BTW speed test and can confirm that my sync speed is back up to 71858 which is where it dropped to (from 80001) on 31/3/14. So I'm happy now (poss. not the right word) the the issue caused by the telegraph pole replacement was resolved yesterday when the last engineer was up there :)

So, we're getting there.

I'm not really all that fussed about straying too far from the stock setup so I will pursue the Huawei modems and see if I can get one of those. I need to look at mobiles and consider 3G/4G backup but I don't use my mobile phone too much and therefore hate contracts. I'm just on £7.50 PAYG with giffgaff at the moment and don't even use all of that. Apart from maybe if I'm travelling for work then the data will get used.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: adslmax on April 22, 2015, 01:39:30 PM
BT Openreach has temporarily suspended g.inp enabled for now until further notice.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 22, 2015, 01:45:33 PM
Where did you get that information from?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 22, 2015, 03:10:01 PM
BT Openreach has temporarily suspended g.inp enabled for now until further notice.

Max, please post the link to Openreach's announcement of the above.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 22, 2015, 05:59:33 PM
Looking at the last active time on his profile he's been on here since both of our posts - but no response.

Could it be that what he's posted is as grounded in facts as most of his posts?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 22, 2015, 07:09:44 PM
BT Openreach has temporarily suspended g.inp enabled for now until further notice.

Do you have a source please max?

It's one thing to say that "you suspect they may have because of [example] & [example]", or "that you think they may have because of [example]", but we mustn't say that they have, until we know for sure that they have.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 22, 2015, 07:13:50 PM
Quote from: MartinW
We're on Huawei cab, ECI modem.

Hi Martin and welcome.    It is possible that a chunk of your lost speed is likely to be down to the ECI issue 2 :/

Did I see that you said you'd placed a tentative bid on a Huawei HG612?  Let us know how it goes :)   Alternatively wombats suggestion of the Billion would be a possible good alternative.
 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 22, 2015, 07:17:05 PM
Looking at the last active time on his profile he's been on here since both of our posts - but no response.

I well know Max from his postings to threads in the TBB forum as, I assume, do you, jelv.  ;)

Remembering that he once had a personal "hot line" direct to Olive Garfield (when the availability of a VDSL2 based FTTC service was late to be offered to him) I can only assume he now has a similar personal "hot line" direct to Joe Garner.  ::)

Somehow I feel that if such a decision has been taken by Openreach, our very own Black Sheep would know and would share the information with us all.  :)

(Edit: To insert a missing word!)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: adslmax on April 22, 2015, 07:26:04 PM
One of the senior management from Openreach has aware of the G.INP issues from 13 isp's had complaints to BT with the loss of speed with high ping. They take action and temporarily suspended g.inp until further notice. That's what BTO boss told me in email yesterday Joe Garner.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 22, 2015, 08:06:32 PM
Edit: Someone has PM'd me something that has made me doubt my facts (I may be confusing adslmax with someone else) so this post is withdrawn while I check.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on April 22, 2015, 09:05:19 PM
My cabinet is still sitting there doing nothing. Nice road he has of the view though!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 22, 2015, 10:57:14 PM
I need to look at mobiles and consider 3G/4G backup but I don't use my mobile phone too much and therefore hate contracts. I'm just on £7.50 PAYG with giffgaff at the moment and don't even use all of that. Apart from maybe if I'm travelling for work then the data will get used.

Rather than thinking of a mobile phone (ie a voice phone, with data features), you might want to think of it more as mobile data - specifically just for internet access.

I've got an unlocked Huawei e5372 4G modem-WiFi (about £75 on Amazon), with which I tend to use either a PAYG data-only SIM from EE (You can find ones with 6GB allowance at Amazon for about £16), or a PAYG data-only SIM from Three.

Once we start to use a fresh EE SIM, that data allowance lasts for 3 months IIRC.

The modem tends to get used when we go on holiday, giving net access for all the tablets. For backup access at home it needs an external antenna, stuck onto the outside of the bathroom window.

I was tempted by the 8800AXL as a combined device with the 4G backup option, though it wouldn't work well when out travelling. They hadn't quite got supplies into the country when I last needed the option.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 23, 2015, 12:43:15 AM
Did I see that you said you'd placed a tentative bid on a Huawei HG612?  Let us know how it goes :)   Alternatively wombats suggestion of the Billion would be a possible good alternative.

The eBay route isn't looking good at the moment, outbid already! TBH, it looks to me like between the unlock and now probably this update issue sellers are already getting wise. There's quite a lot of bidding on auctions and BIN's are looking to generally be £50+. I'm not going to put that amount down on what would essentially be an unknown 2nd hand unit with no comeback or warranty.

The Billion AXL looks great but I gave up shelling out that kind of money on this kind of thing some time ago. I used to sear by Draytek and spent large amounts on them until I had Draytek units that died in very similar time frames to previous D-Link's, Link-Sys & TP-Link. So I figure if it's going to die in 12 months time then I may just as well save myself £100 :P

My last two have been TP-Link however because when the last one died it turned out to have a 3yr warranty and was replaced without any fuss so I was very impressed. Sadly however it took two weeks to process the replacement and I had to order something for the following day so it was all a bit of a moot point in the end.

Anyway, not really sure what to do at the moment. Probably just sit on my hands with half an eye on eBay for now.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 23, 2015, 01:08:22 AM
to suspend for what should be a minor issue seems ridiculous (assuming it has happened).

The fix is to simply give a hg modem to all eci modem holders. Or to get a fixed firmware rolled out.

As suspending it does nothing for those already affected and holds back a very good technology for those on ECI cabinets.

I would guess if it has been suspended the issue is neither openreach or the isp's want to foot a bill for sending out hg modems.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 23, 2015, 01:12:36 AM
The big question (in my mind anyway) is, if there has really been a suspension in the rollout, will they rollback those cabinets that have already seen the update? At least if they were to issue a firmware "update" that effectually rolls it back then it would sort those of us effected out for the time being until they can have another go at getting it right...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 23, 2015, 01:53:40 AM
I would imagine they would need a 6 month duration to get exec approval, followed by 6 months of testing to roll it back :p

Another solution of course is to keep the default profile as fast path and only add g.inp to replace interleaved profiles, in fact if they did that before they probably would have had zilch complaints given those on interleaving already had the latency penalty.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on April 23, 2015, 03:20:30 AM
Those already interleaved typically would only have had 7-8ms added by interleave, but if using the incompatible ECI modem they where hit twice, ie 16-17ms of added latency due to interleave being applied to the upstream ,as G.inp was enabled
As said they should replace all incompatible modems that they supplied with  G.inp compatible ones, and sort out a firmware fix ahead of rolling out g.inp on eci cabs,
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 23, 2015, 08:51:24 AM
Quote
The fix is to simply give a hg modem to all eci modem holders.

The financial impact would be too high.  This would be a no until all other methods have been exhausted.

Quote
Or to get a fixed firmware rolled out.

I agree... and I should imagine this will be the route they are taking.

Quote
suspending it does nothing for those already affected and holds back a very good technology for those on ECI cabinets.

We do not know yet just how far impacting this is.   We know it affects a certain chipset, we dont know yet if it is only that particular chipset and if any other equipment uses it.   I believe I may have been the first to identify the Lantiq issue and start to have suspicions about the HH5A and also the TP-link TD-W9980.  Both proved later proved to be true.  Just what else is out there with the same/similar chipset?  :-X

Quote
if there has really been a suspension in the rollout, will they rollback those cabinets that have already seen the update?

I've suspected for nearly two weeks that there has been a suspension of the ECI cab roll out, Ive voiced this suspicions a few times, but I have no proof.  I also suspect that a DLM reset may also now be removing g.inp from the DLM profile - but have far less circumstantial evidence of this than I do of the ECI cab suspension.     

I don't think they will roll back [note MY think - no source & not fact] because it has seen a lot of improvements for a lot of lines.    In the early days they did match modem to cab, so in the grand scheme the impact on Huawei cabs is going to be a lot less than on the ECIs.  There are far more Huawei cabs than ECI's but if they continue with rolling out on the ECI's then a very high percentage of those users will be impacted so they have to stop the roll out.

Quote
I would imagine they would need a 6 month duration to get exec approval, followed by 6 months of testing to roll it back

Note that we have been lucky on here in that we have seen and have got feedback from TP-Link, theyve openly told us they were working with Lantiq and members of this forum have beta tested, so we know a fix is possible.   However as yet there is no official fix in the wild, just the beta available to members of this forum.  I believe TPlink are working with at least one member of this forum with some further enquiries and they will not release a full fix until they are happy that all is well.

Same goes with BT, they need to be satisfied that the fix works with ALL equipment before they roll out nationwide.

I do believe that they should be more open with the public and even the ISPs though and announce that they are aware of the issue and are working on a fix.

I've been trying to do some digging in a few places but everywhere turns up stonewalled and no-one knows nothing.  The press type statement that went out to TBB, was actually confusing and only proved that the LH didnt know what the RH was doing.  When I get home tonight, I will try something else.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 23, 2015, 01:50:03 PM
I would imagine they would need a 6 month duration to get exec approval, followed by 6 months of testing to roll it back :p

I would imagine the opposite - that long before the rollout started, the rollback mechanism was tested. Checking this part of the process will have been part of the acceptance testing.

In the very earliest stages of the rollout, while being watched carefully, rollback would have been an integral part of the daily plans. People responsible for an overnight upgrade will have needed to decide, there and then, whether to rollback, while the execs would only find out what happened after breakfast. I have the "been there, done that" T-shirts for such events - from one memorable occasion of taking out a chunk of SE England before rolling back (embarrassing), to another of having to report back to the execs at breakfast time why I needed to stop a widespread software release from happening (scary). In the last one, I had about 3 hours to call on other technical staff to check that I wasn't mistaken, and that we really were about to release something that had gone FUBAR.

As trust is gained through the small, initial rollouts that run just fine, the plans for widespread rollout will tend to accelerate the rollout at the expense of room for rollback - as it had already proven unnecessary.

The problem, in this case, is that the rollout became so widespread before the ill effects were noticed; rollback then becomes non-trivial. By this point, it does need exec approval because there is likely to be a significant cost to choosing to do anything - stopping, continuing or going backwards.

The first question the high-up exec will be asking: What is the scale of the problem? That "left hand - right hand" problem Kitz mentioned suggests that the answer to this question was not initially known.

After that, the question is whether to fold, stick or twist. In the absence of understanding the scale, a "stick" seems like the easiest first choice.

I know people like to characterise organisations like BT as full of incompetence as well as bureaucracy, but it really doesn't work like that.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 23, 2015, 05:33:33 PM
regarding cost remember when openreach reissued the hg modems due to overheating however this time is different as I expect there is no longer a contract in place for the hg modems as openreach seek to abandon supplying them to end users.

whilst the cost may be too high it is definitely unreasonable to expect end users to bear that cost given that they had no say in g.inp been turned on, on their lines.  it is openreach's responsibility to fix the problem even if it means taking a hit in the pocket.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 23, 2015, 06:03:45 PM
FWIW, I received an automated email from MDWS at 08:13 today to confirm that another user had G.INP activated on his connection.

I also received another email at 09:23 to confirm that a different user had G.INP disabled.

I don't know much about the first user, but the second user does occasionally swap modems, which could be the cause of G.INP being disabled.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 23, 2015, 06:47:49 PM
disabled as in fast path or disabled as in change to normal interleaving?

BE is it possible to add to MDWS that us normal users can get these notifications?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: AArdvark on April 23, 2015, 07:02:53 PM
I also received another email at 09:23 to confirm that a different user had G.INP disabled.

It would be of great interest to know the sequence of events before G.INP was disabled.
I  lost G.INP as a consequence of a DLM Reset being performed on my line.
(G.INP was there before and gone after the reset)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 23, 2015, 08:24:38 PM
disabled as in fast path or disabled as in change to normal interleaving?


It appears that it was disabled & returned to 'normal' interleaving (see the attached graphs).

Quote
BE is it possible to add to MDWS that us normal users can get these notifications?


You'd have to ask tbailey2 about that as MDWS is his project.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 23, 2015, 08:27:58 PM
It would be of great interest to know the sequence of events before G.INP was disabled.
I  lost G.INP as a consequence of a DLM Reset being performed on my line.
(G.INP was there before and gone after the reset)


Unfortunately I don't have that information.
I simply get notified when users have G.INP enabled or disabled.

The point I was making was that perhaps the G.INP rollout hasn't actually been completely suspended.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 23, 2015, 08:34:32 PM
One other thing that I have only just spotted is that the user with G.INP enabled today appears to be connected to an ECI DSLAM.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 23, 2015, 09:02:39 PM
Ooo that's interesting :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 23, 2015, 09:08:55 PM
Oh hang on, er...  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 23, 2015, 09:15:49 PM
BE which user?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 23, 2015, 09:19:48 PM
It would be of great interest to know the sequence of events before G.INP was disabled.
I  lost G.INP as a consequence of a DLM Reset being performed on my line.
(G.INP was there before and gone after the reset)


Unfortunately I don't have that information.
I simply get notified when users have G.INP enabled or disabled.

The point I was making was that perhaps the G.INP rollout hasn't actually been completely suspended.

The ones Ive seen I cant seem to see any pattern, because it comes and goes, perhaps change of router, or new MDWS subscriber.   Aardvarks line is the only one Ive seen so far which is odd.

The new one this morning to me looks like another newly subscribed member to MDWS (no previous stats) ..  and if its the same one that Im thinking - Rolocollie - then it looks like he's on a Huawei cab.

I can see anyone on the full list (http://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/HG612-MultUsersLivei.htm) who has g.inp and on an ECI

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 23, 2015, 09:30:20 PM

The new one this morning to me looks like another newly subscribed member to MDWS (no previous stats) ..  and if its the same one that Im thinking - Rolocollie - then it looks like he's on a Huawei cab.



Yep, that's the username.

Argh!!!!

MDWS has now changed. It did report ECI earlier on.


It doesn't matter though as AndyH seems to know all about it anyway:-

https://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138671.msg1223141.html#msg1223141



Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 23, 2015, 09:50:51 PM
btw...  atm Im having lots of niggles about the IFTN/Lantiq & g.inp issues.   I've hinted earlier in this thread a couple of times that I suspect something else is up.   It started a few weeks ago that the SP's cant seem to get proper DLM info if the EU was using non-compliant kit.. and Im having a hard time understanding why this hasnt come to light before now.

Surely there's other SP's out there using g.inp (discounting the likes of Sky with BCM MSANs & Eirecom - BCM dslams & modems).  I cant seem to find another CP using g.inp and IFTN.... or is there?   Can anyone decypher whats going on here (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.onlinekosten.de/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D144190%26page%3D24&prev=search)  I dont understand German and translate isnt helping too much.

We know the M41's use IFTN Geminax chipsets. Infineon DSL chipsets appear to have been bought out by Lantiq, and supposedly anything INFN may be pre 2009.   Its known that Infineon also had their own form of ReTX before g.inp was standardised.

What about things like SELT/MLT which can use IFTN (http://www.testandmeasurement.com/doc/infineon-introduces-a-multichannel-line-0001), what about other IFTN test equipment?  Is it the older stuff with non-standardised g.inp?.   The longer BT are keeping total silence the more things are niggling me...  why not just now come out with it and say oh yes theres an issue with the ECi modems, we are looking to roll out  updated software..  the more I think about other possible IFTN kit then ...  well  I dunno where Im going with this.. because Im not sure where to start and I dont have enough info. 

No facts.  No info.  Just lots of niggles.  Is the total lack of communication even to the SPs causing me to be too suspicious?  Why arent even AAISP getting any info?  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 23, 2015, 09:51:39 PM
One other thing that I have only just spotted is that the user with G.INP enabled today appears to be connected to an ECI DSLAM.



I was just going to crack open that case of beer, we all getting to edgy take a deep breath and double check your findings an ECI cabinet should turn green on MDWS.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 23, 2015, 09:52:43 PM

It doesn't matter though as AndyH seems to know all about it anyway:-

https://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138671.msg1223141.html#msg1223141

Thats nothing new BE.   It was reported here on this forum (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15190.msg283232.html#msg283232)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 23, 2015, 10:01:35 PM
take a deep breath and double check your findings an ECI cabinet should turn green on MDWS.


I am aware of that NS, but I can assure you that it WAS green & it DID show as ECI earlier on.

It now shows as Huawei.
Perhaps tbailey2 also spotted it & corrected it?


 

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 23, 2015, 10:22:00 PM
It now shows as Huawei.
Perhaps tbailey2 also spotted it & corrected it?

You meen he corrected a flaw on his side  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tbailey2 on April 24, 2015, 07:04:59 AM
It now shows as Huawei.
Perhaps tbailey2 also spotted it & corrected it?

You meen he corrected a flaw on his side  ;)

No - but you could correct a flaw on your side.... meen == mean  :lol:

Anyway, MDWS corrected the entry itself as it is able to. I had had several emails to say the cabinet was first one then the other type but hadn't investigated due to other work that is taking much of my time currently. It appears there was some problem in MDWS accessing the file it uses as reference and the default happens to be ECI if it fails  - but this hasn't happened before. It is definitely a Huawei cab though.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 24, 2015, 10:52:36 AM
Did I see that you said you'd placed a tentative bid on a Huawei HG612?  Let us know how it goes :)

Well, I managed to snag something from eBay but it's a slight gamble. As I said, all the ones specifically labelled as HG612 in the auction seem to be either £40+ already or being quite hotly contested. So I got one that doesn't say what it is. I can see from the port layout that it is either a Huawei, or an early revision ECI. For £12 I'm prepared to take a gamble. I'll either have some revision of Huawei or I'll have a backup to my rev./r ECI should that ever go pop.

I have considered a different router but probably completely the opposite to everyone else, I prefer a separate modem. I can then do what I like in terms of moving and re-routing all via RJ45 without going anywhere near telephone lines. My modem is directly at the point of entry to the house of the main cable so telephone cable is as short as it can possibly be.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 24, 2015, 10:57:23 AM
I hope it is a Huawei, the prices for modems seem to have gone silly over the past month.  :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 24, 2015, 11:00:38 AM
I unlocked my spare last night and swapped to it. I'll probably be putting the unlocked one I've been using for the last week on eBay over the weekend.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 24, 2015, 12:01:56 PM
personally I wouldnt pay more than £30 for a hg612 now.  There is broadcom commercial routers for under £60.  The billion 8800nl can be used as a modem in bridge mode.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on April 24, 2015, 01:45:05 PM
Just read the latest update over on A&A's status page on the G.inp/ECI issue

Quote
We have just received the below back from BT on this

Following communications from a small number of BTWholesale FTTC comms providers regarding Openreach’s implementation of Retransmission and the identification of some your customers who have seen increased latency on some lines for some applications since retransmission was applied. Over the last 4 weeks I have been pushing Openreach to investigate,

feedback and provide answers and options related to this issue. As a result attached is a copy of a briefing from Openreach; sent to their CPs today, on how RetX works and what may have caused this increase latency.

This info is being briefed to all BTWholesale customers via our briefing on Saturday morning 25/4/15 but as you have contacted me direct I’m sending this direct as well as providing ann opportunity to participate in a trial.

Openreach have also advise me this afternoon that they intend to run a trial next week (w/c 25/4/15) on a small set of lines; where devices aren’t retransmission compatible in the upstream to see if changing certain parameters removes the latency and maintains the other benefits of retransmission. The exact date lines will be trialled has yet to be confirmed.

However, they have asked if I have any end users who would like to be included in this trail. To that end if you have particular lines you’d like to participate in this trial please can you provide the DN for the service by 17:00 on Monday 28th April so I can get them included.

This is a trial of a solution and should improve latency performance but there is a risk that there may be changes to the headline rate.
https://aastatus.net/posts.cgi?itype=Broadband&oseverity=2 (https://aastatus.net/posts.cgi?itype=Broadband&oseverity=2)

There should be no loss of headline sync speeds with G.inp  ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 24, 2015, 03:20:52 PM
Did I see that you said you'd placed a tentative bid on a Huawei HG612?  Let us know how it goes :)

Well, I managed to snag something from eBay but it's a slight gamble. As I said, all the ones specifically labelled as HG612 in the auction seem to be either £40+ already or being quite hotly contested. So I got one that doesn't say what it is. I can see from the port layout that it is either a Huawei, or an early revision ECI. For £12 I'm prepared to take a gamble. I'll either have some revision of Huawei or I'll have a backup to my rev./r ECI should that ever go pop.

I have considered a different router but probably completely the opposite to everyone else, I prefer a separate modem. I can then do what I like in terms of moving and re-routing all via RJ45 without going anywhere near telephone lines. My modem is directly at the point of entry to the house of the main cable so telephone cable is as short as it can possibly be.

A couple of tips that will help when attempting to identify the make of an Openreach Modem, which has been advertised on eBay without any further information.

Assuming that there is at least one photograph available:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 24, 2015, 03:43:02 PM
Thanks for the info.

Based on that, provided the picture is not a stock one (it doesn't look like it) then it's a Huawei due to the square LED openings :thumbs:

We shall see when it arrives.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 24, 2015, 04:07:39 PM
Based on that, provided the picture is not a stock one (it doesn't look like it) then it's a Huawei due to the square LED openings :thumbs:

We shall see when it arrives.

  :fingers:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 24, 2015, 04:49:50 PM
If it is a Huawei:

1. Well done you
2. It proves how essential it is to accurately describe items you are selling on eBay (you wouldn't have got at that price if the seller had done that).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 24, 2015, 05:45:01 PM
ISPReview have posted some news: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/04/bt-openreach-briefs-uk-fttc-fibre-broadband-isps-on-g-inp-issues.html

Shame they stated that the firmware update fixes the issue on ECI modems!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 24, 2015, 06:08:46 PM
Quote
* We have not yet started the rollout for the ECI infrastructure as we are investigating a minor issue with our hand held testers.

I think that Kitz, our leader, will smile at the above. We touched on the subject in an exchange of PMs, a day or so ago.  ;)

Edit: Having re-read the article, b*cat proceeded to look at the comments . . . and felt a peculiar tingle in his whiskers when he saw who had written the very first one.  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 24, 2015, 06:20:42 PM
Sure that handheld tester JDSU was not able to get a sync on our data extension socket but did on the master socket yet the HG612 was able to get a sync at data extension socket, maybe the JDSU needs a firmware update  ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 24, 2015, 07:39:41 PM
Quote
* We have not yet started the rollout for the ECI infrastructure as we are investigating a minor issue with our hand held testers.

I think that Kitz, our leader, will smile at the above. We touched on the subject in an exchange of PMs, a day or so ago.  ;)

Edit: Having re-read the article, b*cat proceeded to look at the comments . . . and felt a peculiar tingle in his whiskers when he saw who had written the very first one.  :)

As it's 'out there' now, I can't begin to tell you how frustrating it's been, looking at the comments on here as to why the ECI G.INP rollout had been suspended.  ::) ;D

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 24, 2015, 07:58:41 PM
Mr Cat .... I wonder how those PM's may have begun  ;) :) :)

It started with a simple request "Did I know the model of Exfo HHT that has been issued to some Openreach technicians?" (Paraphrased.)  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 24, 2015, 08:57:22 PM
BS.   I deliberately didnt want to drag you into a conversation because I know that you will only tell us things as and when you are able to :). 

My niggles revolved around why the SP's werent getting proper line info for non g.inp routers, which got me thinking about SELT tests (http://www.testandmeasurement.com/doc/infineon-introduces-a-multichannel-line-0001).  The niggle was also there knowing that there had to be a linecard swapout on some Huawei cabs due to "incompatible tests" and having to be replaced with  VCMM cards (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15205.0.html).  So I was aware that something seemed to be going wrong somewhere. 
I resorted to asking b*cat if he could recall which model of EXFO that the OR engineers used.  It's already known that the JDSU's can use either BCM or IFTN SIMs.

Ive yet got to read the info ISPr..  so no doubt will have something to say about that in a moment.   :D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 24, 2015, 09:25:34 PM
Quote
I resorted to asking b*cat if he could recall which model of EXFO that the OR engineers used.

And to save interested parties having to ask, my reply was "Exfo AXS-200/635".  :)

Currently there are two available on eBay, as "buy it now" items --

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261865040074
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331169795241
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 24, 2015, 09:37:37 PM
maybe the JDSU needs a firmware update  ;D

The HST-3000 uses lots of  'modules' that are interchangeable.  It can come with a Broadcom SIM (http://www.jdsu.com/ProductLiterature/hst3000broadcom-ds-tfs-tm-ae.pdf) or Infineon SIM (http://www.jdsu.com/ProductLiterature/hst3000infineon-ds-tfs-tm-ae.pdf).  Whether the Infineon modules will eventually be upgraded via a firmware update or not is unknown but I should imagine at one point it will be.

However, I think the quickest solution for BT would be to swap out the SIM.  The difficulty could be getting hold of a large number all at once.
Ive no idea about any other test gear involved.

Quote
"Exfo AXS-200/635"

Which appear to use BCM chipsets

Based on industry-leading Broadcom DSL chipset for proven VDSL2 and ADSL2+ interoperability and support for impulse noise protection (INP) and Broadcom PhyR™ confi gurations
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on April 24, 2015, 09:38:20 PM
Looks like Max was right!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 24, 2015, 10:03:40 PM
ISPReview have posted some news: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/04/bt-openreach-briefs-uk-fttc-fibre-broadband-isps-on-g-inp-issues.html

Shame they stated that the firmware update fixes the issue on ECI modems!

Thanks jelv, but have they edited that because I cant see it.   In fact I cant see anything about what they are going to do with the ECI's & HH5A's

Some of the items reported also seem a little strange.

Quote
....that did not appear to include proper support for G.INP, which also impacted a few of Openreach’s ECI modems.

Few?  Isnt it all ECI's?   The number of ECI's in circulation would be approximately half of lines installed prior to 2015.   What about the fairly large proportion of BT retail customers who have a HomeHub 5A.   No mention of a resolution :(

Quote
ECI equipment (either modems or DSLAMS) doesn’t currently support upstream retransmission.
From what we have seen with the HH5A & ECIs &  TD-W9980 it wasnt supporting upstream or downstream.

Quote
increasing upstream latency by approx. 8ms.

Most saw increases of 16ms indicating that both upstream and downstream latency was affected.
We saw some cases rise to the 40/50's indicating again that retx high being applied and was affecting both up and downstream.

Quote
We have not yet started the rollout for the ECI infrastructure as we are investigating a minor issue with our hand held testers.

If you visit a customer on an ECI cab and your equipment doesn't work, I hardly think its minor.  As mentioned several times, I suspected something bigger was afoot this will be it.  This is a major reason why the roll out had to stop.


I'm glad that we have got some answers, but there is still an awful lot of things that we dont have an answer to :(

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 24, 2015, 10:25:45 PM
Ive yet got to read the info ISPr..  so no doubt will have something to say about that in a moment.   :D

I've just been reading the ISPr article, and I think it leaves me with more questions than answers...

- Does the increase in latencies that have been seen in the wild really correspond to the fallback diagram? Those would suggest a total of between 16 and 24ms, worst case, but I thought we've had numbers higher than 30ms reported.

- The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

- The fallback mechanism, combined with the fact that DLM now seems very trigger-happy to apply one of the retransmission profiles to all and sundry, would explain the issues we've seen, providing we can get the numbers to match.

- There is no mention of what equipment is incompatible, apart from that mention of ECI upstream. With the work we've seen from Lantiq and TP-Link, I'm surprised we don't see more indications - but perhaps that will come from a BTW briefing.

- What do the 13ms and 18ms values refer to in the retransmission profiles? My guess is that these values are the new "maximum delay" that determine how many retries are allowed.

- Does the fact that ECI DSLAMs don't support G.INP upstream mean that, once they're included in the rollout, every subscriber connected to them (including both Huawei and ECI modems) will fallback to a "interleaving low" profile upstream? Thus forcing an 8ms latency hike upstream on everyone?

- This might answer Kitz's niggle: if the new fallback profiles are actually new ones that act like the "interleaving xxx" ones, but are named internally to something different (perhaps to prevent DLM from cycling back to a G.INP replacement); but separately, the results available to ISPs like Zen don't know what to display for these profiles; we could get the situation we've had reported - no description of the line profile.

- From the mention of the key error statistic - under 1 ES per hour - I think we can assume that this remains an important statistic, even with G.INP active. It tells me that their target, especially for IPTV quality, is still written in terms of the rate of ES.

Time for a beer...

edit: add a couple of clarifications for upstream-only to one point.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 24, 2015, 10:43:32 PM
Thanks jelv, but have they edited that because I cant see it.

They've removed a whole chunk where they said about the DLM reset!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 24, 2015, 10:48:33 PM
I totally agree with you wombat, there are far too many unanswered questions that dont seem to tackle some of the main issues for the EU's.

Quote from: wwwombat
Those would suggest a total of between 16 and 24ms, worst case, but I thought we've had numbers higher than 30ms reported.

We have. 

Quote from: wwwombat
The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

- The fallback mechanism, combined with the fact that DLM now seems very trigger-happy to apply one of the retransmission profiles to all and sundry, would explain the issues we've seen, providing we can get the numbers to match

I agree (see my post above (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg285994.html#msg285994)).  It doesnt quite tie in with what we have seen.   The increase in latency would imply that both upstream and downstream are being affected.

Quote
There is no mention of what equipment is incompatible, apart from that mention of ECI upstream. With the work we've seen from Lantiq and TP-Link, I'm surprised we don't see more indications - but perhaps that will come from a BTW briefing

Very disappointing for those EUs stuck with a HH5A and ECI modems.   Also the beginnings of a two tier broadband service, people on ECI are getting a raw deal.  No idea what the real issue is, but the information that IFTN cant support upstream is also a little odd.   Presumably that is the IFTN chips in the ECI cabs.

So are they saying that users on ECI cabs are going to be stuck with a default interleaved profile that cant be turned off regardless of what equipment they use :(  According to the table that is 8ms upstream for those on ECI's.   This will not please a lot of people.  Its a damn good job they didnt roll it out.




Weve seen that TP-link and Lantiq appear to have managed something - actually Im going to take this over to the TPlink/G.INP thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15322.0.html) later because theres more I'd now like to query.
 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 24, 2015, 11:20:32 PM
- The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

I did notice the Billion 8800NL has phyr turned off on the US by default could that also be related to the above  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on April 24, 2015, 11:51:41 PM
When i was using the ECI modem last, the line had been interleaved on the ds only 7-8ms and the usual loss of around 8-10mbps of sync (ds only ) on the 14th day when i was expecting a return to fastpath  i was G.inp ed latency increased further to around 27-28ms from 19-20ms and ds sync reduced further, and upstream throughput was impacted too for some reason,
Not happy with this i swapped modems to the HG612 and could see that interleave was applied to both DS and US a day or 2 later  re synced and was G.inp enabled full sync and low latency again They IMO are clueless

Also the remote GEA tests from my ISP do not show any indication that my connection is G.inp enabled , it does report that the us has interleaved low though, which is incorrect
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: adslmax on April 25, 2015, 12:00:03 AM
I told you so. That's the ECI cabinet roll out with g.inp won't be happen now. Next stage for Joe Garner will email me end of this month.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on April 25, 2015, 12:05:47 AM
- The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

I did notice the Billion 8800NL has phyr turned off on the US by default could that also be related to the above  :-\

it appears the majority of modems have it turned off on US by default, presumably because its optional and therefore not all DSLAMs will support it.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on April 25, 2015, 12:22:03 AM
Quote
Openreach have also advise me this afternoon that they intend to run a trial next week (w/c 25/4/15) on a small set of lines; where devices aren’t retransmission compatible in the upstream to see if changing certain parameters removes the latency and maintains the other benefits of retransmission. The exact date lines will be trialled has yet to be confirmed.
Would appear to be their next step, So maybe they are going to test a new firmware?  maybe they have copied tp link's beta fw
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 25, 2015, 12:25:07 AM
I told you so. That's the ECI cabinet roll out with g.inp won't be happen now. Next stage for Joe Garner will email me end of this month.

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284195.html#post_updates
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 25, 2015, 12:31:13 AM
Quote
Openreach have also advise me this afternoon that they intend to run a trial next week (w/c 25/4/15) on a small set of lines; where devices aren’t retransmission compatible in the upstream to see if changing certain parameters removes the latency and maintains the other benefits of retransmission. The exact date lines will be trialled has yet to be confirmed.
Would appear to be their next step, So maybe they are going to test a new firmware?  maybe they have copied tp link's beta fw

It looks like to me that the changes will be made to the DLM.  There is no mention about firmware upgrades.
 
The information that has today come to light is that the Infineon chipsets (inc lantiq) according to BT are incapable of upstream ReTX.   Ive noticed something odd in the TPlink/G.inp (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=15322.15) thread that I previously thought it was perhaps a decimal placing error on the upstream delay.   Now Im not so sure. :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: adslmax on April 25, 2015, 12:34:07 AM
Kitz, I will let u know when Joe Garner will updated me with email later this month when he hear more from Senior Openreach tech guy.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 25, 2015, 12:36:36 AM
Thank you max
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on April 25, 2015, 03:24:42 AM
- The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

I did notice the Billion 8800NL has phyr turned off on the US by default could that also be related to the above  :-\

it appears the majority of modems have it turned off on US by default, presumably because its optional and therefore not all DSLAMs will support it.

From some tests last week, didn't we see that the modems (visibly) have the PhyR feature turned off upstream, but that this is a different feature from G.INP. PhyR is a Broadcom-proprietary solution, while G.INP is a generic ITU specification.

The modems make this hard to determine, because they seem to have separate command options to set the 2 features, but don't have options in the display commands to show both configurations in parallel.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 25, 2015, 06:58:25 AM
this doesnt bode well for us on eci cabs.

Quote
Retransmission can operate in both downstream and upstream channels simultaneously, although ECI equipment (either modems or DSLAMS) doesn’t currently support upstream retransmission.

* Any infrastructure that doesn’t support retransmission in the upstream will default to interleaving, increasing upstream latency by approx. 8ms.

I assume there is a reason g.inp cannot be one way only just on the downstream? so upstream left on fast path.

IF so openreach should leave fast path as the default on ECI cabinets and only use g.inp on unstable lines.

Kitz I suspected this issue would affect ECI cabs and it looks like I am right based on the ispreview article.

I also wonder how many isp's will tell end users this, and we only been made aware due to someone leaking it to ispreview.

I might email joe garner myself to stress they shouldnt replace fast path with this junk, only interleaving.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 27, 2015, 10:09:53 AM
*sigh* You got to love people on eBay that don't use a picture of the actual item they're selling! 1 ECI rev.R modem arrived. Will be shoved in the bottom of the drawer as a spare. I might mail the seller and point out they haven't sent me the item in the auction but other than that it's not worth the grief or the cost of sending it back.

[EDIT] Bah, not in the mood for messing about - just did a BIN for one that specifically says it's an unlocked Huawei - not that I'm desperately interested in the unlock, it's the compatibility I'm after.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 27, 2015, 11:07:32 AM
 :(
Do you have a link for the image?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 27, 2015, 11:14:57 AM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-Openreach-Fibre-Modem-/301600572359 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-Openreach-Fibre-Modem-/301600572359)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 27, 2015, 11:17:56 AM
I might put it back on FS with a BIN of £10 + P&P or something. I'm just not sure I can be bothered. Fortunately I'm not hard up for a tenner. If I was I probably wouldn't have fibre anyway :D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 27, 2015, 11:36:36 AM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-Openreach-Fibre-Modem-/301600572359 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-Openreach-Fibre-Modem-/301600572359)

Sure looks like they used a Huawei image to me.

Attached is a photo Ive just taken of an ECI (left) and Huawei (right)

Quote
I might mail the seller and point out they haven't sent me the item in the auction

I would!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 27, 2015, 11:42:53 AM
They did for sure, and I've saved it :) Oh well.

I'll start a new thread when the Huawei turns up - which is definitely listed and pictured as a Huawei 3B, and they even say it's unlocked and talk about that, so there's no question this time round! I've waffled on enough about modems and eBay in this G.INP rollout thread :p
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: adslmax on April 27, 2015, 12:24:17 PM
Have to be wary of ebay scam, they took photo of different openreach modem and then misleading description to customer.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 27, 2015, 12:55:29 PM
Interesting!

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,136287.msg1224011.html#msg1224011

Quote from: Matthew Wheeler
Hi All.

If there are any customers who are affected by this and are still using a ECI modem there is a trial we're looking to do with Openreach and Wholesale.

Basically we're looking at cases where devices aren’t retransmission compatible in the upstream to see if changing certain parameters removes the latency and maintains the other benefits of retransmission.

If anyone is interested drop me a message with your username and I'll get back to you.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 27, 2015, 04:18:45 PM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-Openreach-Fibre-Modem-/301600572359 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-Openreach-Fibre-Modem-/301600572359)

It's the principle that counts! That image is definitely of a Huawei HG612, so I would open an eBay case that the supplier did not supply the item for which you were bidding.  >:(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 27, 2015, 04:23:38 PM
Interesting!

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,136287.msg1224011.html#msg1224011

Interesting, yes, but a kludge.  ::)  I would be more interesting in being supplied with an appropriate CPE that operates as expected!  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MikeZ on April 27, 2015, 05:21:01 PM
Hello, I've been reading this thread with interest as I believe that I've been affected by G.INP being enabled on my cabinet. One day last week my line went down between approximately 2 am and 6am. The next day I resynced with greatly increased latency and a significant drop in both DS and US speed. I have an ECI modem and believe that I'm on an ECI cabinet:

ChipSet Vendor Id:      IFTN:0xb204
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xb204
ChipSet SerialNumber:   5501917519

I've managed to get hold of an HG612 (with G.INP firmware) which I've installed and started uploading stats to MDWS (user MikeZ). I'm hoping that things will now return to normal in the next couple of days.

I'd had a stable fastpath connection for a couple of years until this happened.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bowdon on April 27, 2015, 06:31:59 PM
*sigh* You got to love people on eBay that don't use a picture of the actual item they're selling! 1 ECI rev.R modem arrived. Will be shoved in the bottom of the drawer as a spare. I might mail the seller and point out they haven't sent me the item in the auction but other than that it's not worth the grief or the cost of sending it back.

[EDIT] Bah, not in the mood for messing about - just did a BIN for one that specifically says it's an unlocked Huawei - not that I'm desperately interested in the unlock, it's the compatibility I'm after.

There is a guy on ebay called letocetum whose selling an HG612 3B modem for £60. He's been pretty good when I've bought stuff from him in the past.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 27, 2015, 06:32:19 PM
Hello Mike, welcome to the Kitz forum.

Quote from: MikeZ
ChipSet Vendor Id:      IFTN:0xb204

The Infineon chipset definitely confirms an ECI equipped cabinet.

I'm not too sure if you mean that you experienced an approximate four hour outage of service or that there was a somewhat shorter outage, somewhere within the 0200 - 0600 hours time-frame?  ???

Certainly the facts, as you have described, do seem to fit the application of G.INP on your circuit.

The questions have to be asked -- Which exchange? And which cabinet number, please?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bowdon on April 27, 2015, 06:43:42 PM
I wonder if this confirms that G.INP is now being tested on ECI cabinet's.

*waits for my modem to disconnect and reconnect.. I'm not sure if I should be wishing for G.INP or not lol
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ip75 on April 27, 2015, 06:50:04 PM
The stats on MDWS suggest it's regular interleaving that's been applied, not G.INP.  :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 27, 2015, 06:53:14 PM
I wonder if this confirms that G.INP is now being tested on ECI cabinet's.

*waits for my modem to disconnect and reconnect.. I'm not sure if I should be wishing for G.INP or not lol

Your line is connected through an ECI equipped cabinet, yet in the same general area Bald_Eagle1's line is connected through a Huawei equipped cabinet. Are you both connected back to the same exchange, Oldham?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MikeZ on April 27, 2015, 07:07:31 PM
Hello Mike, welcome to the Kitz forum.

Quote from: MikeZ
ChipSet Vendor Id:      IFTN:0xb204

The Infineon chipset definitely confirms an ECI equipped cabinet.

I'm not too sure if you mean that you experienced an approximate four hour outage of service or that there was a somewhat shorter outage, somewhere within the 0200 - 0600 hours time-frame?  ???

Certainly the facts, as you have described, do seem to fit the application of G.INP on your circuit.

The questions have to be asked -- Which exchange? And which cabinet number, please?

Thanks for the welcome  :)

It's Hardingstone exchange, cabinet 58. The line went down for approximately 3.5 hours the day before the resync.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MikeZ on April 27, 2015, 07:09:43 PM
The stats on MDWS suggest it's regular interleaving that's been applied, not G.INP.  :(

Yes, but is this not a symptom of a modem that doesn't support G.INP? A posting by kitz on page 1 of this topic says

"Any lines which are connected using an non-compatible g.inp modem/router appear to default to a DLM profile that applies fairly heavy interleaving and error correction overheads."

I'm hoping that now I've got a modem that supports G.INP, the DLM will return to normal.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 27, 2015, 07:47:58 PM
"Any lines which are connected using an non-compatible g.inp modem/router appear to default to a DLM profile that applies fairly heavy interleaving and error correction overheads."

I'm hoping that now I've got a modem that supports G.INP, the DLM will return to normal.

That info is for a users you has an incompatible modem on a Huawei cabinet you are on a ECI cabinet and as far as we know G.INP has not been enabled on any ECI cabs.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ip75 on April 27, 2015, 08:01:07 PM
I'm hoping that now I've got a modem that supports G.INP, the DLM will return to normal.

Right. I'm not sure about this. In the past I think connecting a Huawei modem has resolved the delay immediately, but I'm not sure if that's always the case.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MikeZ on April 27, 2015, 08:06:07 PM
Right. I'm not sure about this. In the past I think connecting a Huawei modem has resolved the delay immediately, but I'm not sure if that's always the case.

A couple of users on TBB had it happen in the early hours of the next day, as did somebody on here in one of the other threads, so fingers crossed...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MikeZ on April 27, 2015, 08:45:46 PM
That info is for a users you has an incompatible modem on a Huawei cabinet you are on a ECI cabinet and as far as we know G.INP has not been enabled on any ECI cabs.

As far as we know. I'll see what happens in the next couple of days...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 27, 2015, 09:02:03 PM
afaik, the ECI rollout has been suspended and NOT restarted. 
Im awaiting some more info from Openreach's Chief Engineer, but atm I am not aware of any ECI cabs (other than say the Martlesham etcs) being G.inp enabled.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 27, 2015, 09:03:57 PM
the ebay seller may not have intended to scam but instead was lazy and just grabbed someone else's image to use for his advert, this was a common problem with xbox360's there is a slim model and a S model (S is inferior), on ebay many big established companies were selling the S model labeling it as a slim and even using a slim picture when they were S models.  It wouldnt surprise me if they still are.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 27, 2015, 09:40:52 PM
. . . I am not aware of any ECI cabs (other than say the Martlesham etcs) being G.inp enabled.

Which was the reason behind my request for the particular exchange in question.  :)

Hardingstone (EMHARDI), in the East Midlands, is bit too far away from Martlesham Heath.  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bowdon on April 27, 2015, 11:18:26 PM
Your line is connected through an ECI equipped cabinet, yet in the same general area Bald_Eagle1's line is connected through a Huawei equipped cabinet. Are you both connected back to the same exchange, Oldham?

I think Bald_Eagle1 is directly connected to Oldham's exchange(?) and I'm on the local exchange, SHAW.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MikeZ on April 28, 2015, 08:49:51 AM
Unfortunately no change overnight, so it does look like this is nothing to do with G.INP.

It appears that the 3 hour downtime last week was due to an "exchange fault preventing stable synchronisation" (no more detail available), so I assume that this has caused the high interleaving. I guess I'll just have to wait it out and see if makes any adjustments in the next few days/weeks.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 28, 2015, 08:59:30 AM
Your line is connected through an ECI equipped cabinet, yet in the same general area Bald_Eagle1's line is connected through a Huawei equipped cabinet. Are you both connected back to the same exchange, Oldham?

I think Bald_Eagle1 is directly connected to Oldham's exchange(?) and I'm on the local exchange, SHAW.

Good old Shaw ........... always used to be tagged to the Rochdale patch until one of the many, many re-orgs we have ......... which then saw it move under the Oldham patch. Been there often in the past.  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 28, 2015, 12:28:44 PM
Your line is connected through an ECI equipped cabinet, yet in the same general area Bald_Eagle1's line is connected through a Huawei equipped cabinet. Are you both connected back to the same exchange, Oldham?

Just a note that exchanges (by this I mean local exchanges and fibre terminating exchanges) can have a mix of both.  Im on an ECI cab, yet if I walk just 200m the other way there's a Huawei 96.   In the immediate area there is a good mix of all three types of cab.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on April 28, 2015, 05:04:38 PM
Can I ask exactly where I and others stand who are on an ECI cab with an ECI modem?

I will be quite blunt about this. If OpenReach so much as dish out something that makes my broadband worse I will be right back to Virgin Media and ditching BT Infinity.

So what exactly will OpenReach be doing to ensure us ECI cab and Modem users do not get penalised.

I am very angry with OpenReach regarding this matter and not doing there homework earlier in regards to ECI equipment.

Like you Kitz I am on an ECI cab, yet 100mtrs the other way is a huge Huawei double size.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 28, 2015, 05:35:16 PM
I have asked similar questions myself because its not looking good for the ECI's atm.   
Ive been promised a response from their Chief Engineer @ Network Strategy but have told it will be at the earliest next week as he is out of the office atm.   As soon as I know whats going on I will update.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 28, 2015, 05:56:55 PM
I think Bald_Eagle1 is directly connected to Oldham's exchange


Indeed I am, but my FTTC cabinet is around 4.2 km from the Oldham exchange & I'm another 1.1km further than the cabinet.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on April 28, 2015, 06:20:10 PM
I have asked similar questions myself because its not looking good for the ECI's atm.   
Ive been promised a response from their Chief Engineer @ Network Strategy but have told it will be at the earliest next week as he is out of the office atm.   As soon as I know whats going on I will update.

I can safely say since I have had FTTC - BT Infinity (Feb 13') it has been the best Broadband I have ever had. Before I was on VM which was over utilized on my segment.

Latency and speeds have been very good so far (touch wood).

I would be gutted for OpenReach to deploy a profile that screws with my internet. If they do then I guess I am off. But that is not what I want. But if my hand is forced..

I will also contact BT direct and tell them I am out if they deploy a system that causes more problems then good (on ECI equipment).

This really annoys me! - As I am sure you can see ;)

BTW do you happen to have a contact at OR I can e-mail to mention my concerns and someone at BT wholesale?

Thanks,
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 28, 2015, 06:26:38 PM
I don't see a problem as you're on an ECI cab with an ECI modem
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on April 28, 2015, 06:41:42 PM
I don't see a problem as you're on an ECI cab with an ECI modem

But everything I am hearing/reading suggests that ECI equipment within the cabs along with ECI modems are not able to cope with G.INP.

So surely I do have reason for concern?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 28, 2015, 06:54:02 PM
I have asked similar questions myself because its not looking good for the ECI's atm.   
Ive been promised a response from their Chief Engineer @ Network Strategy but have told it will be at the earliest next week as he is out of the office atm.   As soon as I know whats going on I will update.

I can safely say since I have had FTTC - BT Infinity (Feb 13') it has been the best Broadband I have ever had. Before I was on VM which was over utilized on my segment.

Latency and speeds have been very good so far (touch wood).

I would be gutted for OpenReach to deploy a profile that screws with my internet. If they do then I guess I am off. But that is not what I want. But if my hand is forced..

I will also contact BT direct and tell them I am out if they deploy a system that causes more problems then good (on ECI equipment).

This really annoys me! - As I am sure you can see ;)

BTW do you happen to have a contact at OR I can e-mail to mention my concerns and someone at BT wholesale?

Thanks,

Woah blue, you've got a circuit you seem very happy with ..... you don't need to go shaking your fist at BTOR just yet.
There's been issues with the rollout of G.INP on ECI, so .... they've stopped it until they find a fix.

That's it for now, no secret agenda to screw EU's over, no covert deployment of sub-standard systems ....... just a glitch that they are trying to overcome. Count to ten, bud ....... it's only broadband.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 28, 2015, 07:43:29 PM
This is kind of worrying when end-users are throwing up there heads and demanding they don't want G.INP on there ECI cabinet and are happy to stay on the older fastpath profile  :(

I could give many reasons why G.INP is better for the EU -> no more regular DLM intervention, very little errored seconds for noisy lines, better latency for longer lines and a small increase in sync and so on.

All i am going to say to the short line fastpath users you need not be scared of G.INP and when the issue is fixed you will never look back  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 28, 2015, 09:35:48 PM
This is very worrying for users on ECI cabs.

Quote from: BT Openreach
Retransmission can operate in both downstream and upstream channels simultaneously, although ECI equipment (either modems or DSLAMS) doesn’t currently support upstream retransmission.

If the DSLAM cant support upstream reTX then IMHO it is a cause for concern.   DSLAM upstream is downstream for the EU's!   

You think those on a Huawei cab using an ECI modem is bad.   That is nothing compared to ECI modem users on an ECI cab who are going to be hit both ways.   As it stands atm no-one on an ECI cab is going to be able to get 80/20 because the IFTN chipset cant cope with G.INP.  So the likes of me and chrys and numerous others regardless or not if they are using g.inp compatible routers will be hit....  and that is why the rollout has been stopped for ECI cabs and why Im not happy and why I've taken it up with Openreach direct... and why I'm calling the IFTN chipsets in the ECI linecards a piece of p00.  :thumbdown: 
Just imagine the crap that would have hit the fan if they'd continued.   I cannot believe for one minute that this has been tested properly - either that or Openreach think we are all dumb and wouldnt notice 80Mbps connections losing 10Mbps of their sync.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 28, 2015, 09:56:23 PM
As it stands atm no-one on an ECI cab is going to be able to get 80/20 because the IFTN chipset cant cope with G.INP.

Oh dear Kitz then it's a lack of hardware support i was afraid of that on both ECI cabinet and ECI modem god i hope your wrong  :fingers:

and if your right then openreach is going have to pull the whole g.inp project from both eci and huawie cab as that would be disscrimation and we are all back to the bad old days of DLM errored seconds and so forth.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on April 28, 2015, 10:05:15 PM
Quote from: kitz
Just imagine the crap that would have hit the fan if they'd continued.   I cannot believe for one minute that this has been tested properly

Haven't they been "testing" for 2 years though?  They need to use end users that have some technical know how - this should have been noticed in week one of testing!

Annoyed I am on an ECI cabinet, annoyed it took them half a decade to eventually enable the cab and even more annoyed that without Ginp/vectoring my FTTC speed will be no faster than ADSL2+ after starting at 80/20 with all the crosstalk issues.

I hope BTOR have some good news even if it is to send back the ECI cabs and get something that works!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 28, 2015, 10:17:02 PM
We shall have to see what they come up with.   The only excuse that I can think is that we know this was tested before they made changes to the DLM late last year.   The current DLM system seems to be particularly harsh with the application of interleaving and this will be what causing most of the issues with latency and lack of speed.   Anyhow I await a further reply before I jump the gun and lets hope they can do something to sort it, otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy hectors :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 29, 2015, 01:05:27 AM
I have asked similar questions myself because its not looking good for the ECI's atm.   
Ive been promised a response from their Chief Engineer @ Network Strategy but have told it will be at the earliest next week as he is out of the office atm.   As soon as I know whats going on I will update.

please update us with the reply you get.

For what its worth I contacted ofcom, gave them the technical details, and they told me its a detriment to the service and as such people could exit without penalty.

I asked for it in writing so should get this in a letter within a week or so.

This is very different to things like crosstalk, because if g.inp is enabled on ECI cabs with interleaving fallback on the upstream, then thats something entirely in openreach's control.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 29, 2015, 01:15:19 AM
Quote from: kitz
Just imagine the crap that would have hit the fan if they'd continued.   I cannot believe for one minute that this has been tested properly

Haven't they been "testing" for 2 years though?  They need to use end users that have some technical know how - this should have been noticed in week one of testing!

Annoyed I am on an ECI cabinet, annoyed it took them half a decade to eventually enable the cab and even more annoyed that without Ginp/vectoring my FTTC speed will be no faster than ADSL2+ after starting at 80/20 with all the crosstalk issues.

I hope BTOR have some good news even if it is to send back the ECI cabs and get something that works!

This is what happens when you treat end users as dumb, give them no respect and do a silent trial.

They were probably just testing if it connected ok, and level of fault reports.

The proper way to trial is ask the tech savvy users to test and be open with what you doing.  Like whats happening now with plusnet and aaisp asking for ECI modem trialists.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 29, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
Quote
For what its worth I contacted ofcom, gave them the technical details, and they told me its a detriment to the service and as such people could exit without penalty.

The problem is exit to where?   There's no other provider around here, so its Openreach or nothing.   I would imagine a good portion of the population are in the same position as no alternative :(

Quote
This is very different to things like crosstalk, because if g.inp is enabled on ECI cabs with interleaving fallback on the upstream, then thats something entirely in openreach's control.

Yes I agree and thats what some people dont seem to understand is that to some users it will be a degradation of their service.  Going off BobPullens stats its 10Mbps of speed and more than doubling of latency.   :'(

I had to stop reading over there, because I dont have time nor inclination to argue the toss with the Im alright jack & the I know more than you do brigade.   Someone mentioned to me tonight that theyve had to stop posting there because of attitude, and just a couple of days ago someone else remarked on the change of the forums.   

Anyhow Im glad that Openreach have pulled it for now and I hope that they can come up with a satisfactory solution.   atm the only way I can think is by messing with the DLM.   Im still not understanding properly how the upstream from the DSLAM will affect.   BT are currently seemingly under the impression that its only affecting the EU's upstream on the ECI modems, when weve seen that its affecting both, so the information so far is all rather confusing and why Im hoping to be able to get some answers.  Whether I will or not remains to be seen, but hopefully my questions have been passed to the person who should know.  :fingers:

Quote
They were probably just testing if it connected ok, and level of fault reports.

Most likely :(

Quote
The proper way to trial is ask the tech savvy users to test and be open with what you doing.

Agree 100%
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on April 29, 2015, 04:14:18 AM
A better option would be to give isp's control over DLM and allow it to be disabled  if requested by the EU, My connection until G.inp ran fine when on Fastpath  even though at times there was bursts of errors for short periods of time, but i didn't consider it to be service affecting, where as i did feel DLM applying interleave was , only for it to return to fast path 2 weeks later  3-4 times in 23mths dlm intervened  needlessly IMO
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 29, 2015, 08:53:41 AM
I had to stop reading over there, because I dont have time nor inclination to argue the toss with the Im alright jack & the I know more than you do brigade.   Someone mentioned to me tonight that theyve had to stop posting there because of attitude, and just a couple of days ago someone else remarked on the change of the forums.

If a certain shill over there keeps posting rubbish I'll keep challenging him. There's already been a warning from a moderator on the topic about it verging on to personal attacks (challenging all who post rubbish is OK - but if all is only one person does that make it personal?).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 29, 2015, 08:57:21 AM
A better option would be to give isp's control over DLM and allow it to be disabled  if requested by the EU, My connection until G.inp ran fine when on Fastpath  even though at times there was bursts of errors for short periods of time, but i didn't consider it to be service affecting, where as i did feel DLM applying interleave was , only for it to return to fast path 2 weeks later  3-4 times in 23mths dlm intervened  needlessly IMO

There is a difficulty with that: an EU insists they want DLM disabled even though it would be beneficial because their line is prone to errors. They then raise a fault needing an engineer's visit. What happens next?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 29, 2015, 10:19:34 AM
kitz well for me it would be back to cable.

Obviously some people dont have the option of cable, but still if openreach try to push this and ofcom side with consumers it may then make isps put pressure on openreach.

Time will tell what happens tho, this may not be needed as it does look like currently openreach are trying to avoid the performance penalty.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 29, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
I had to stop reading over there, because I dont have time nor inclination to argue the toss with the Im alright jack & the I know more than you do brigade.   Someone mentioned to me tonight that theyve had to stop posting there because of attitude, and just a couple of days ago someone else remarked on the change of the forums.

If a certain shill over there keeps posting rubbish I'll keep challenging him. There's already been a warning from a moderator on the topic about it verging on to personal attacks (challenging all who post rubbish is OK - but if all is only one person does that make it personal?).

I am guessing if that thread gets closed, andy will have achieved his aim.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 29, 2015, 10:36:03 AM
Yes and no - Plusnet would get a barrage of criticism about censoring complaints about speeds - not everyone realises the moderators are also users.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on April 29, 2015, 12:09:54 PM
A better option would be to give isp's control over DLM and allow it to be disabled  if requested by the EU, My connection until G.inp ran fine when on Fastpath  even though at times there was bursts of errors for short periods of time, but i didn't consider it to be service affecting, where as i did feel DLM applying interleave was , only for it to return to fast path 2 weeks later  3-4 times in 23mths dlm intervened  needlessly IMO

There is a difficulty with that: an EU insists they want DLM disabled even though it would be beneficial because their line is prone to errors. They then raise a fault needing an engineer's visit. What happens next?


The isp could basically verbally convey a verbal disclaimer to the EU , in that doing this may at some point cause a negative impact to your connection blah blah, blah, as for the EU reporting a fault then, before BT openreach involvement  the isp would run tests, including with DLM on or a manual config with interleaving /g.inp applied , if a line was needing very high levels of interleaving INP ect and was still showing issues then raise a fault  with bt . like llu suppliers used to. I can see no difficulty with that solution, apart from isp's having to employ trained people to provide tech support, DLM was designed to save isp's doing this, but it is far from perfect,
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on April 29, 2015, 12:15:24 PM
I had to stop reading over there, because I dont have time nor inclination to argue the toss with the Im alright jack & the I know more than you do brigade.   Someone mentioned to me tonight that theyve had to stop posting there because of attitude, and just a couple of days ago someone else remarked on the change of the forums.

If a certain shill over there keeps posting rubbish I'll keep challenging him. There's already been a warning from a moderator on the topic about it verging on to personal attacks (challenging all who post rubbish is OK - but if all is only one person does that make it personal?).

I am guessing if that thread gets closed, andy will have achieved his aim.
Took the words right out of my mouth.I very nearly wrote something on those lines yesterday, as that's the opinion that have formed too, we all could ignore him not respond to his remarks starve the troll/shill
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 29, 2015, 05:13:01 PM
What is annoying is the "Im alright" and "what you are seeing is perfectly acceptable" or "Openreach say its supposed to work like that" or "there's not that many complaining".  What we are seeing on the forums will just be the tip of the iceberg, and there will be many who have the issue, who either don't notice and just think their broadband is having an off day, cant check because the modem is locked down, don't post on forums etc.

Perhaps some don't see the bigger picture of engineers being called out because EU's losing a large chunk of speed. I saw a post the other day where it was obvious that it was a g.inp issue and the OR engineer was struggling to reset the DLM.  How much wasted ISP & OR man hours.  Not only that many will be fobbed off by CS because 'speeds fall within the projected speed range'.  10Mbps is a lot to lose and latency of up to 50ms is not acceptable in my books if a line doesn't need it.

I honestly don't believe that Openreach can have tested this properly because surely they should notice such huge decreases on some lines.. or perhaps they only tested with matched equipment.  They certainly cant have expected things like the GEA test to come back null or OR engineer's diagnostic tools to not work.

Anyhow:   A picture paints a thousand words.

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2FGINP_stats.png&hash=4ecc0bcb61e469b125ffff6a26e776d5)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 29, 2015, 07:23:33 PM
Shame the Huawei modem used a different server - Bristol not London. Apart from that, good graphic :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 29, 2015, 11:30:34 PM
kitz am I ok to post that pic elsewhere?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on April 30, 2015, 07:29:01 AM
That picture is scary and no way will I settle for my broadband to go down the drain without a fight. It will be criminal for Openreach to deploy this on ECI cabs and Modems.

I have also posted on the BT forums but clearly just get replies from the "I'm ok jack" so usless posting there. They don't get it.

I just hope OR do not deploy this system on ECI hardware. Would that effect G.Fast in the future?

Going back to what Kitz mentioned earlier regarding not everyone can fall back on cable. That is very true and another reason OR can't push out a config which ruins stable connections.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 30, 2015, 08:02:44 AM
long story short, end users shouldnt pay the price for openreach going cheap on the ECI cabs to save a few pennies.

If they try, I will make a LOT of noise.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 30, 2015, 08:15:34 AM
kitz am I ok to post that pic elsewhere?

Yep sure.  It was made to share :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tbailey2 on April 30, 2015, 08:36:17 AM
Shame the Huawei modem used a different server - Bristol not London. Apart from that, good graphic :)

Photoshop? :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jelv on April 30, 2015, 09:09:30 AM
My one concern about the image is not the different server (which wouldn't make that much difference) but the widely different dates and times which could mean contention was a factor. It does mean the ECI potentially was even worse!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 30, 2015, 09:15:04 AM
I'm just thinking of the knee-jerk reaction by those in denial, such as you find on the BT Community.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 30, 2015, 09:34:50 AM
We shall have to see what they come up with.   The only excuse that I can think is that we know this was tested before they made changes to the DLM late last year.   The current DLM system seems to be particularly harsh with the application of interleaving and this will be what causing most of the issues with latency and lack of speed.   Anyhow I await a further reply before I jump the gun and lets hope they can do something to sort it, otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy hectors :(

The way I read it, and this is only my personal opinion, is along the lines Kitz has mentioned above. Please people, take a breath ............. it's being worked on.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 30, 2015, 12:44:00 PM
Well, this is odd and possibly a little depressing!

HG612 arrived today so I've reflashed it to the latest I could find (SP08 software and 38m.d24j f/w) and there is no immediate difference. I figured it may take 24h or more to see a difference but in the meantime I wanted to confirm if G.INP is really the route cause of my speed drop and ping increase. Bear in mind around half of the 20mbit d/l drop was due to a dodgy module in the box up the pole and that is now resolved.

It looks like G.INP is not enabled and Interleave is currently way up at 1141 so I can't really explain my 8Mbit d/l speed drop (I was originally on 80001)

Does G.INP immediately show up if it is enabled? I assume so.

Here is my info from DSLStats...

Code: [Select]
Stats recorded 30 Apr 2015 12:43:18

DSLAM/MSAN type:        BDCM:0xa451 / v0xa451
Modem/router firmware:  AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode:                VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                  Showtime
Uptime:                  1 hours 1 min 59 sec
Resyncs:                0 (since 30 Apr 2015 12:33:45)

Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  13.9 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not monitored
Connection speed (kbps): 72558 19999
SNR margin (dB):        7.8 12.1
Power (dBm):            13.0 5.0
Interleave depth:        1141 673
INP:                    3.00 4.00
G.INP:                  Not enabled

RSCorr/RS (%):          0.0001 0.0966
RSUnCorr/RS (%):        0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour:                0 0
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: AArdvark on April 30, 2015, 01:37:15 PM
MartinW,
Your experience ties in with mine.

BT OR 'played' with my line to fix a fault and G.INP has disappeared and line sync has dropped speed permanently.

I am on a Huawei DSLAM using a Zyxel 8324 modem.

Was getting actual sync 77xxx now 68xxx not happy, because the drop is not for the ususal reasons, it happened within minutes by the line being 'Fixed'.

Plusnet refuse to acknowledge there is a fault becuase the only line fault they recognise is a drop in speed outside 'your estimate range'.
Plusnet cannot recognise the fault is actually BT OR messing up my line as it as syncing at 72xxx with the fault and was dropped to 70000 when fixed.
This was when using a HG612 modem.
It has dropped further to 68xxx which I cannot improve on with the Zyxel, which is at odds with past expereince where I got 5M higher line sync.
I am sticking with the Zyxel as it matches my Gigabit network and is more usable than the HG612.

My estimate range has been dropped as a consequence of 2 speed drops that were faults that BT OR 'Fixed' but didn't.
G.INP has been gone for weeks, might be more than a  month, my memory has blured due to the on going saga with Plusnet. (Do not ask!) >:(  ;D
 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 30, 2015, 03:42:24 PM
MartinW,
Your experience ties in with mine.

BT OR 'played' with my line to fix a fault and G.INP has disappeared and line sync has dropped speed permanently.

I am on a Huawei DSLAM using a Zyxel 8324 modem.

Was getting actual sync 77xxx now 68xxx not happy, because the drop is not for the ususal reasons, it happened within minutes by the line being 'Fixed'.

Plusnet refuse to acknowledge there is a fault becuase the only line fault they recognise is a drop in speed outside 'your estimate range'.
Plusnet cannot recognise the fault is actually BT OR messing up my line as it as syncing at 72xxx with the fault and was dropped to 70000 when fixed.
This was when using a HG612 modem.
It has dropped further to 68xxx which I cannot improve on with the Zyxel, which is at odds with past expereince where I got 5M higher line sync.
I am sticking with the Zyxel as it matches my Gigabit network and is more usable than the HG612.

My estimate range has been dropped as a consequence of 2 speed drops that were faults that BT OR 'Fixed' but didn't.
G.INP has been gone for weeks, might be more than a  month, my memory has blured due to the on going saga with Plusnet. (Do not ask!) >:(  ;D

Well, it would certainly make sense if G.INP was applied around the 31st March as my symptoms were identical to everyone else that has had G.INP applied with ECI modems. I'll leave it as-is for a couple of days and see if any resyncs happen or anything.

Any idea if there is anything I can do about the interleaving depth or is that something that Zen need to do?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 30, 2015, 04:47:08 PM
Well, this is odd and possibly a little depressing!

HG612 arrived today so I've reflashed it to the latest I could find (SP08 software and 38m.d24j f/w) and there is no immediate difference. I figured it may take 24h or more to see a difference but in the meantime I wanted to confirm if G.INP is really the route cause of my speed drop and ping increase. Bear in mind around half of the 20mbit d/l drop was due to a dodgy module in the box up the pole and that is now resolved.

It looks like G.INP is not enabled and Interleave is currently way up at 1141 so I can't really explain my 8Mbit d/l speed drop (I was originally on 80001)

Does G.INP immediately show up if it is enabled? I assume so.

Here is my info from DSLStats...

Code: [Select]
Stats recorded 30 Apr 2015 12:43:18

DSLAM/MSAN type:        BDCM:0xa451 / v0xa451
Modem/router firmware:  AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode:                VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                  Showtime
Uptime:                  1 hours 1 min 59 sec
Resyncs:                0 (since 30 Apr 2015 12:33:45)

Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  13.9 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not monitored
Connection speed (kbps): 72558 19999
SNR margin (dB):        7.8 12.1
Power (dBm):            13.0 5.0
Interleave depth:        1141 673
INP:                    3.00 4.00
G.INP:                  Not enabled

RSCorr/RS (%):          0.0001 0.0966
RSUnCorr/RS (%):        0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour:                0 0


I don't think yours is related to g.inp.  If it were then this figure:-
Quote
INP:                       3.00      4.00
would be much higher.  Thats the standard (old) DLM settings.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MikeZ on April 30, 2015, 04:50:44 PM
Does G.INP immediately show up if it is enabled? I assume so.

One or two people on the TBB forums (and also one I read on here) didn't see G.INP enabled until the day after they connected a compatible modem.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on April 30, 2015, 04:58:51 PM
I do wonder if I'm just being hit by crosstalk. I was one of the first few people in the town to have Fibre installed (according to the engineer), let alone this cab. That was 5 months ago.

[edit] And meant to add, will wait 24h / 48h and see if anything changes. I'm no longer expecting much.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 30, 2015, 04:59:38 PM
My one concern about the image is not the different server (which wouldn't make that much difference) but the widely different dates and times which could mean contention was a factor. It does mean the ECI potentially was even worse!

I hadnt noticed the dates, although not much I could do as the original graphic was EU complaining of loss of speed and latency.  Took a while to order, receive and install a HG612 from ebay. Shame they dont have one from immediately before putting on the HG612, but the line was one of those that didnt update the DLM until the next day... and then the throughput speed was delayed a bit longer due to the PN profile also needing to adjust :(.   
The HH5A v HH5B is a very good example though.

Speed test is easiest way of showing it - full line stats is too much to put in a graphic.


PS found an in between one for same EU to narrow the timegap, speed not quite as good but this was was at peak so possibly expected - image updated - F5 should refresh it.


--------
btw one other thing Ive noticed, is that the upload speeds never seem to be quite as good.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: BigJ on April 30, 2015, 07:23:37 PM
Hi, new user here. I thought I'd share my experience with an ECI modem with Huawei cab; Apologies for the following long post.

For many weeks now I'd noticed that my speeds had dropped and ping increased. As it was within normally limits I guessed my ISP (plusnet) would tell me to go away. Every now and then my connection would become very slow and on one such occurance, I tested on www.speedtest.btwholesale.com and got through to the 3rd test, DS=27Mbps US=2Mbps. Contacted ISP and after a few days they arranged for an engineer visit but the best time for me was in 5 days. They also reported seeing line drops on the weekend I called. In the meantime I wanted to get stats from my modem and found this great site and read about G.INP.

I used to get DS=60-65Mbps, US=15-16Mbps (btwholesale), IPProfile=64-69M and ping ~10ms (speedtest.net). I'm not exactly sure when, but at some point my downloads dropped to ~52Mbps, IPProfile=54M and ping increased to ~ 25ms. When the engineer came he didn't find anything wrong but agreed something wasn't right and tried a DLM reset which didn't change the IPProfile or download speed.

Got myself a HG612 on 24th Apr. It connected/synced at 57620 Kbps which ties up with the IPProfile 55Mbps. The interleaving seemed quite large at DS=909 & US=673 which I assume accounts for the increased ping of ~15ms I was seeing.
After a day the modem reported G.INP was now enabled with interleaving set to 8 and modem syncing at 67357 Kbps but IPProfile still 55. Ping tests improved ~10ms and upload speeds improved ~5Mbps (btwholesale test) to ~15Mbps.
Second day the IPProfile showed as 65 Mbps which seems right for the sync speed. There has been a general improvement except download which is still stuck at ~53Mbps.

There are however three things which puzzle me still.
1) Why is my download speed still consistantly 12M down on my IPProfile after 4 days?

2) I normally do speedtests with btwholesale and speedtest.net with the later showing US 1-2M greater than BT. When I got G.INP'ed (I'm assuming) my US reported by BT dropped to ~10Mbps while SpeedTest stayed at ~17Mbps. When G.INP was enabled on the HG612, both speedtests reported ~15Mbps.

2) Before G.INP, my reported Noise Margins where DS=6db, US=9db but after G.INP DS=6db, US=12db. I wasn't expecting any change in margin as the noise on my line is still the same. When I switched to using a new shorter modem cable, it resynced with the same results.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 30, 2015, 07:44:31 PM
There are however three things which puzzle me still.
1) Why is my download speed still consistantly 12M down on my IPProfile after 4 days?

2) I normally do speedtests with btwholesale and speedtest.net with the later showing US 1-2M greater than BT. When I got G.INP'ed (I'm assuming) my US reported by BT dropped to ~10Mbps while SpeedTest stayed at ~17Mbps. When G.INP was enabled on the HG612, both speedtests reported ~15Mbps.


Hi and welcome to the forums :)

What is your Plusnet profile?
https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=stable_rate

We've seen a couple of cases whereby its the PN profile which has stopped the speed increases being immediate.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: BigJ on April 30, 2015, 07:57:31 PM
There are however three things which puzzle me still.
1) Why is my download speed still consistantly 12M down on my IPProfile after 4 days?

2) I normally do speedtests with btwholesale and speedtest.net with the later showing US 1-2M greater than BT. When I got G.INP'ed (I'm assuming) my US reported by BT dropped to ~10Mbps while SpeedTest stayed at ~17Mbps. When G.INP was enabled on the HG612, both speedtests reported ~15Mbps.


Hi and welcome to the forums :)

What is your Plusnet profile?
https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=stable_rate

We've seen a couple of cases whereby its the PN profile which has stopped the speed increases being immediate.

Hi kitz

The PN profile was showing as 55.6 Mb on 26th Apr and when I next checked on the 28th it was 65Mb. Checking it now still shows 65Mb.

Edit: Can't type :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 30, 2015, 08:10:43 PM
Quote
tried a DLM reset which didn't change the IPProfile or download speed.

This is rather familiar to lines which have been g.inped but have an incompatible router, and its mentioned in the main post that for some reason the OR guys appear have a job to get it to unstick and the only way is getting a compatible router.

Im a bit at a loss to try figure out why the line is now syncing at 67Mbps, and both the IPprofile and BT profile at 65Mbps why youre not yet getting full throughput.

Perhaps one of the other guys can spot something obvious that Ive missed?

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: BigJ on April 30, 2015, 08:16:53 PM
Quote
tried a DLM reset which didn't change the IPProfile or download speed.

This is rather familiar to lines which have been g.inped but have an incompatible router, and its mentioned in the main post that for some reason the OR guys appear have a job to get it to unstick and the only way is getting a compatible router.

Im a bit at a loss to try figure out why the line is now syncing at 67Mbps, and both the IPprofile and BT profile at 65Mbps why youre not yet getting full throughput.

Perhaps one of the other guys can spot something obvious that Ive missed?

Ah, must have missed that. I've switched out the PN supplied router for an ASUS which I'll plug back in. Thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: BigJ on April 30, 2015, 08:47:03 PM
Quote
tried a DLM reset which didn't change the IPProfile or download speed.

This is rather familiar to lines which have been g.inped but have an incompatible router, and its mentioned in the main post that for some reason the OR guys appear have a job to get it to unstick and the only way is getting a compatible router.

Im a bit at a loss to try figure out why the line is now syncing at 67Mbps, and both the IPprofile and BT profile at 65Mbps why youre not yet getting full throughput.

Perhaps one of the other guys can spot something obvious that Ive missed?

You nailed it kitz! I've been following this thread for about 2 weeks and seem to have forgotten the finer details :) Using my original Technicolor TG582n instead of the Asus rt-ac68u I'm now getting 61Mb. I'll see if I can downgrade to one of the old firmware versions for Asus.

Thank you so much kitz.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 30, 2015, 09:37:46 PM
BT not Openreach supplied the HH5 A that has a problem with G.Inp. I don't think BT are in any rush to replace those, or even stop rolling them out.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 30, 2015, 09:56:15 PM
<snipped to keep page length shorter>
My estimate range has been dropped as a consequence of 2 speed drops that were faults that BT OR 'Fixed' but didn't.
G.INP has been gone for weeks, might be more than a  month, my memory has blured due to the on going saga with Plusnet. (Do not ask!) >:(  ;D
 

yeah I remember you had a very high attainable initially (like myself) and now are below 70mbit.  I had 2 large drops in attainable in the first month of my service, which at this time I have assumed is heavy disturbers on crosstalk, but its always been lingering in my mind if its a fault.  The only way I will find out is if and when vectoring gets enabled.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 30, 2015, 10:21:45 PM
The only way I will find out is if and when vectoring gets enabled.

Chry if G.INP has caused this much hassle to a lot of users god only knows when vectoring is enabled on their line and the modem is incompatible that's going to be another forum headline.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on April 30, 2015, 10:24:56 PM
The only way I will find out is if and when vectoring gets enabled.

Chry if G.INP has caused this much hassle to a lot of users god only knows when vectoring is enabled on their line and the modem is incompatible that's going to be another forum headline.

at least with g.inp we're able to identify the issue. I've not seen any reference to vectoring anywhere so I'm not sure how we'd know it was enabled or even if it's supported by the modem or not.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 30, 2015, 10:37:44 PM
The only way I will find out is if and when vectoring gets enabled.

Chry if G.INP has caused this much hassle to a lot of users god only knows when vectoring is enabled on their line and the modem is incompatible that's going to be another forum headline.

at least with g.inp we're able to identify the issue. I've not seen any reference to vectoring anywhere so I'm not sure how we'd know it was enabled or even if it's supported by the modem or not.

Oh for sure if it's not working as it should you will be getting weird speedtest results as G.INP is the first step to vectoring if the g.inp project is unsuccessful wave goodbye to vectoring  :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on April 30, 2015, 10:44:17 PM
we know the hg612 supports g.inp, what about vectoring for that modem?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 30, 2015, 10:53:55 PM
we know the hg612 supports g.inp, what about vectoring for that modem?

I don't know but i will purchase a modem that's supports g.inp and vectoring, there has to be plenty of Mobile phone users that want something and their old contract phone can't do while still under the 18 month contract, so what do they do they purchase a better one is that not the same as a Broadband contracted modem.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on April 30, 2015, 11:53:26 PM
we know the hg612 supports g.inp, what about vectoring for that modem?

But if you are connected to an ECI cab like me then there is no point buying another modem as the cabinet is a limitation anyway in regards to G.INP?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 01, 2015, 12:15:14 AM
You nailed it kitz! I've been following this thread for about 2 weeks and seem to have forgotten the finer details :) Using my original Technicolor TG582n instead of the Asus rt-ac68u I'm now getting 61Mb. I'll see if I can downgrade to one of the old firmware versions for Asus.

Thank you so much kitz.

Youre very welcome, but I didnt do anything much -  it was a fluke and my misuse of the word 'router' that triggered you finding it.  I hadn't twigged re the TG582n, so you get credit for that.
So glad you managed to sort it :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 01, 2015, 12:22:02 AM
we know the hg612 supports g.inp, what about vectoring for that modem?

But if you are connected to an ECI cab like me then there is no point buying another modem as the cabinet is a limitation anyway in regards to G.INP?

Blue166 your lookin for an answer regarding what will happen if g.inp is enabled and what if it's not enabled, I think you want it but are peed off because you can have it at the moment is that correct ?

I would be peed of to if i was in your shoes ! you would like G.INP enabled on your line but for some reason it's not within your reach, look at the moment on your ECI cabinet your better of without it until oprenreach finds away for both ECI cab and ECI modem to work in both directions using G.INP but it's not there yet.

You can keep on posting what will happen and what if ? the answer is we just don't know, I sound like the late Sir Patrick Moore but a least he was honest when faced with a difficult question.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 01, 2015, 01:10:59 AM
we know the hg612 supports g.inp, what about vectoring for that modem?

But if you are connected to an ECI cab like me then there is no point buying another modem as the cabinet is a limitation anyway in regards to G.INP?

Blue166 your lookin for an answer regarding what will happen if g.inp is enabled and what if it's not enabled, I think you want it but are peed off because you can have it at the moment is that correct ?

I would be peed of to if i was in your shoes ! you would like G.INP enabled on your line but for some reason it's not within your reach, look at the moment on your ECI cabinet your better of without it until oprenreach finds away for both ECI cab and ECI modem to work in both directions using G.INP but it's not there yet.

You can keep on posting what will happen and what if ? the answer is we just don't know, I sound like the late Sir Patrick Moore but a least he was honest when faced with a difficult question.

I guess you are right. It would be nice from the point of view that really we should not be faced with Huawei equipment which works with G.INP vs ECI which doesn't. You are right, I am better off without it enabled and it is down to Openreach to make sure they do not create a divide within there own network.

So it is left with them to work on a fix. I guess only time will tell.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on May 02, 2015, 10:47:59 AM
Well, this is interesting. Last night was the 2nd overnight since I replaced the ECI modem with the unlocked HG612 and we had a resync / reset.

I can't cut and paste the stats because DSLStats is now running on a raspberry pi and I don't have any spare ports on my router for the line2 connection so it's a private IP only, BUT...

G.INP has been re-applied. My Interleaving has gone down from 1100+ to 16 and bearer 1 has appeared. In addition to this the speeds have now resync'd at 20Mb up, 74Mb down. Not quite back to the 80/20 that it was before G.INP was applied but we're not far off. I do wonder if I may see further resets in the coming days that might gradually get it back up again? Who knows.

In addition, I'm thinking that the firmware may have been updated on the router. I need to go and check. I'm sure I had killed the BTAgent (need to telnet in and check that too) but my Zen portal is telling me exact sync speeds like 73919 and the modem stats are rounding them up to 74000. That seems new to me.

Will double check that last bit.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 03, 2015, 01:26:25 PM
Quote
Not quite back to the 80/20 that it was before G.INP was applied but we're not far off.

One thing I have noticed a lot of is that most lines don't appear to be able to get as much upstream as previous.  Eg speedtest even after swapping to a compatible modem will show a slightly slower upstream throughput ie 17.5Mb compared to the previous 18.5 Mbps.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ip75 on May 03, 2015, 03:25:23 PM
Could this be because those lines are generally swapping to Huawei modems? I couldn't get upstream beyond 17.5Mbps until I disabled QoS on the HG612.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on May 03, 2015, 04:04:56 PM
I need to log into it at some point and check the settings but it's in bridge mode so I think QOS should be disabled?

To be honest, I don't go by speed test tools. I go by real world tests. I usually go to Apple Developer site and download Xcode or something like that. Or Microsoft, or Steam. I'm sustaining about 8.4MB/s using that method and although my line sync speed may be lower than it used to be, in real world terms I'm pretty much up where I was. I'd get a bit higher than that sometimes but not by much at all.

Ping to bbc is 11 or 12. So I'm loathe to mess about too much as that's pretty reasonable for gaming (which I do a lot of)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on May 03, 2015, 04:13:49 PM
The Huawei HG612 for me gives a slightly lower us throughput than  the ECI modem did, qos and firewall are disabled , and all the cabs around here that where installed from summer 2012 onwards seem to be huawei mainly the 288 line cabs
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 03, 2015, 04:17:06 PM
Could this be because those lines are generally swapping to Huawei modems? I couldn't get upstream beyond 17.5Mbps until I disabled QoS on the HG612.

Im not sure since Im not using a HG612 so cant check.   But it is a valid point worth trying.   
I also recall reading something about memory being a limitation.  If the modem is doing the upstream reTx then the modem is going to be working hard storing retx data whether its used or not.. and could possibly affect throughput.?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on May 04, 2015, 11:00:39 AM
Bingo!

As I hoped it might, 4 nights in to the HG612 modem and my line has seen another re-sync that has brought me back to 80/20. Well, technically, 79912 / 19978. I haven't logged into the modem yet to see what interleave is showing now but my ping rate is still around 12 or 13. I'm guessing the modem will be showing rounded up figures again and so will show literally 80000/20000.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on May 08, 2015, 09:58:19 PM
As a suffering ECI cabinet user I am wondering if there has been any news regarding getting G.INP working on ECI cabinets and rollout?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 08, 2015, 10:01:48 PM
Openreach will be conducting a small trial to remove the automatic application of interleaving in the upstream when the infrastructure doesn't support Retransmission in the upstream. This trial is due to begin on Monday 11th May 2015
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 09, 2015, 06:08:50 AM
I think that trial is not on ECI cabinets tho.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 09, 2015, 09:05:03 AM
Maybe. Details are a bit scant https://aastatus.net/2127
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 09, 2015, 11:12:44 AM
yeah thats the same trial where they were asking for users with ECI modems to volunteer.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 14, 2015, 07:10:17 PM
Sadly I was too late to apply for the trial at AAISP. I was originally supplied an ECI modem but am on a Huawei cabinet.

I had regraded to FTTC in the 2nd week of March and saw a longish period of a couple of weeks on fastpath with 9/10mS pings. The service is capped at 40Mbps and sync was 37 DS & 9.4US with attainable of 42.5 & 11.5. Nothing changed and there were no disconnects until sometime in April when I noticed US had dropped to 7.3 but ping times increased to 40-50mS and both have stayed there ever since. Interestingly attainable rates have jumped to 45/46Mbps DS. The situation has been compounded by severe congestion within BT which AA have been good at getting resolved, but now I'm left with high latency caused by interleaving. I'm guessing it may be to do with G.INP being enabled on the cabinet sometime during April but I was out of town for a few weeks then so can't pin down exactly when it happened. I've been pipped at the post with buying a couple of HG612 and before deciding what to do wondered if anyone has heard about any early results from the AA trials?

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MikeZ on May 14, 2015, 07:18:37 PM
Sadly I was too late to apply for the trial at AAISP. I was originally supplied an ECI modem but am on a Huawei cabinet.

AAISP are now supplying the Zyxel VMG1312 which supports G.INP. I wonder if they would swap your Technicolor for one? It's a VDSL router so you could replace the ECI modem.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 14, 2015, 07:33:16 PM
AAISP are now supplying the Zyxel VMG1312 which supports G.INP. I wonder if they would swap your Technicolor for one? It's a VDSL router so you could replace the ECI modem.

That's interesting! Yes they supplied a TG582 for use as a router only but I'm not using it. I may ask them about just that possibility - thanks for the heads up.

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 14, 2015, 09:57:04 PM
Whats the point if your modem is G.INP enable and the line had G.INP removed by the DSLAM you can't use your new G.INP equipment until OR start the rollout again in 12 months time.

--------
Note by admin - This is not fact
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MartinW on May 14, 2015, 10:14:48 PM
Huh? Have OR rolled back the G.INP implementation? I haven't checked for a while now but my line hasn't re-sync'd so I think it's still on my line...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 14, 2015, 10:21:35 PM
Whats the point if your modem is G.INP enable and the line had G.INP removed by the DSLAM you can't use your new G.INP equipment until OR start the rollout again in 12 months time.

The lines on a DLM g.inp profile still have it enabled.

Also I think it will be alot quicker than 12 months, aaisp will be on their case long before then for a resolution, remember whilst this trial is ongoing all those affected users (Excluding the few on the trial) are still with crippled performance.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 14, 2015, 10:34:49 PM
Whats the point if your modem is G.INP enable and the line had G.INP removed by the DSLAM you can't use your new G.INP equipment until OR start the rollout again in 12 months time.

Well in that case I'd still have fastpath performance like I had before, but if G.INP was rolled out again in XX months I wouldn't be stuck with the current high latency.

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 14, 2015, 11:26:19 PM
NS

The suspension is only for new lines or those that have had a DLM reset and it most certainly is NOT 12 months.  There's plenty of lines that still have g.inp applied.

Currytop is one of the unfortunates who has found himself worse off with G.INP :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 15, 2015, 06:03:26 PM
I know it not an actual fact to when OpenReach start the 2nd rollout of G.INP but we must be realistic here as we all know to well how very slow OR implements it's technology from trial to the end-user, so i have put down my own rollout date March 2016.

PS you forgot another G.INP will be removed when you change your ISP.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 16, 2015, 10:30:00 AM
PS you forgot another G.INP will be removed when you change your ISP.

I don't need G.INP, I was perfectly happy with the line before it was turned on, and I have too much invested in my ISP to look at changing for a while.

I just won a HG612 at a fair price so will see if that resolves the issue.

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: atsw on May 16, 2015, 11:18:06 AM
I've had an Unlimited 80/20 fibre connection since June 2013.  Download speeds have always been rock-solid at ~73Mb/s with pings around 10ms.  However, in April I noticed that my BT IP Profile had reduced to 66 and my pings were more than double at 24ms.  I raised a ticket with PN Support to ask why this had happened.  After of a couple of exchanges the issue was put down to the implementation of G.INP on my line.

I have a Huawei cabinet at the end of my road (approx. 100m from my house), but was supplied with a ECI modem by the BT engineer when Fibre Optic BB was installed in 2013.  At the time this was not a problem, but the device firmware does not support G.INP, hence the drop is speed and increased Ping when the G.INP technology was implemented at the cabinet in April.

After reading about the G.INP rollout I acquired a HUAWEI EchoLife HG612 BT openreach modem and followed the instructions on the Kitz website to unlock the device and upgraded it to the latest B030SP08 firmware which fully supports G.INP.  As soon as I connected the HG612 my BT IP Profile went back up to 77 and Ping came back down to 10ms again.

The output from DSLStats confirms the improved sync speed and that G.INP is active on my line.

Code: [Select]
Stats recorded 12 May 2015 07:49:24

DSLAM/MSAN type:        BDCM:0xa44f / v0xa44f
Modem/router firmware:  AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode:                VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                  Showtime
Uptime:                  11 hours 10 min 1 sec
Resyncs:                0 (since 12 May 2015 07:49:18)

Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  11.1 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not monitored
Connection speed (kbps): 79999 20000
SNR margin (dB):        7.9 13.3
Power (dBm):            13.4 -2.0
Interleave depth:        16 8
INP:                    46.00 47.00
G.INP:                  Enabled

RSCorr/RS (%):          0.0000 0.0016
RSUnCorr/RS (%):        0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour:                0 0

Regards

Andrew
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on May 16, 2015, 11:47:25 AM
That's an excellent result.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 16, 2015, 11:48:37 AM
That's what I'm hoping for too (Apart from my 40Mb cap)!

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 16, 2015, 06:10:10 PM
I don't need G.INP, I was perfectly happy with the line before it was turned on, and I have too

well i do need G.INP and since it's been removed from my line i am back to interleaving depth of 591 and back to the bad old days all thanks to ?

Stats recorded 16 May 2015 18:06:50

DSLAM/MSAN type:           BDCM:0xa44f / v0xa44f
Modem/router firmware:     AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode:                  VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                    Showtime
Uptime:                    5 min 35 sec
Resyncs:                   0 (since 16 May 2015 18:02:46)
         
            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     24.8      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not monitored      
Connection speed (kbps):   30247      6375
SNR margin (dB):           5.9      6.0
Power (dBm):               11.2      0.6
Interleave depth:          591      1
INP:                       3.00      0
G.INP:                     Not enabled      

RSCorr/RS (%):             0.0840      0.0000
RSUnCorr/RS (%):           0.0000      0.0000
ES/hour:                   0      0
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 16, 2015, 07:57:19 PM
newt you swapped modems again?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 16, 2015, 08:49:09 PM
newt you swapped modems again?

Yes i did would this cause any extra issue on my line ?

the BB2 was reporting false stats saying the line was on fastpath yes it is but only on the upstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 16, 2015, 09:21:59 PM
I am always on the belief one should go for as high uptime as possible, so I think you doing yourself no favours with the swapping in and out, I suggest to leave it alone now.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 16, 2015, 09:30:53 PM
I am always on the belief one should go for as high uptime as possible, so I think you doing yourself no favours with the swapping in and out, I suggest to leave it alone now.

As long as you leave a 30 minute power off state before turning on the modem and wait another 30 minutes before powering it off the modem there will be no DLM damage done on the line and if you have done it correctly you will always see a retrain reason 0

Anyway I knew how my line was going to go after G.INP was removed there has been an increase of shine in this area so the result was going to a DS interleave line.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 16, 2015, 10:00:29 PM
What would be good if the end-users could call up their ISP and say we have lost downstream sync and increased errored seconds and higher pings because G.INP was removed or their line will perform much better when G.INP is activated on there line.  ;)

I'll be doing this first thing monday morning
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: atsw on May 16, 2015, 11:20:47 PM
Quote
I just won a HG612 at a fair price so will see if that resolves the issue.

My HG612 is a model 3B. I don't know if this is important. What certainly is important is that you must upgrade the firmware to version B030SP08. Just replacing an ECI device with a HG6212 with old firmware wont make any difference.

Andrew
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 16, 2015, 11:29:03 PM
My HG612 is a model 3B.

Yes thanks, I checked before bidding that it's a 3B and I have the firmware ready & waiting.

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: guest on May 17, 2015, 05:32:15 PM
We had a loss of sync at around 02:20 on 15 May. Cabinet is ECI, router is Sky SR102. Latency is higher by a couple of ms (20% in absolute terms).

That's four loss of sync this year - one was Sky flashing the router, the rest have been BT turning g.INP on/off/god knows now in the early hours. Prior to that the line was up for just over 6 months.

Can you imagine what's going to happen if BT ever try to turn on vectoring?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 17, 2015, 06:11:38 PM
Chaos will happen but they and the isp's will be silent and pretend all is normal.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 17, 2015, 09:47:04 PM
We had a loss of sync at around 02:20 on 15 May. Cabinet is ECI, router is Sky SR102. Latency is higher by a couple of ms (20% in absolute terms).

That's four loss of sync this year - one was Sky flashing the router, the rest have been BT turning g.INP on/off/god knows now in the early hours. Prior to that the line was up for just over 6 months.

Can you imagine what's going to happen if BT ever try to turn on vectoring?


Youre on an ECI cab and have G.INP?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: guest on May 18, 2015, 06:15:15 PM
No idea at all now kitz :)

From mid 2014 until January 2015 there were no LOS or router resets. In January Sky flashed the (SR102) router specifically to deal with the g.INP rollout (it was already fully compliant with g.INP specs but as we've seen the BT side wasn't) - I'm 110% sure on the f/w update reason BTW.

Since then there have been four LOS during the wee small hours - all of which have been remotely initiated (I can tell that much from syslog output). These LOS are not being triggered by DLM (they last several minutes - longest is 14 minutes) so I can only assume BT are flashing/updating the ECI DSLAM. It certainly isn't any sort of physical maintenance (CCTV from the shop across the road shows that).

I think (honestly) we can give up on any hope of vectoring in the UK inside the next 3 years - BT are incompetent in comparison to even morons like Telefonica (and you know my opinion on them kitz) - and g.Fast is a pipedream for the UK.

Openreach needs to be removed from BT control ASAP but that isn't going to happen while Theresa May is hot to trot for a UK equivalent of the great firewall.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 18, 2015, 06:49:21 PM
I've seen others reporting similar things on Sky http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/sky/f/4408243-sky-down.html
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 18, 2015, 07:35:10 PM
Certainly after the cockup they made of g.inp they wont be keen on vectoring now.

How they can make such a hash of g.inp I dont know, its years old tech.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: simoncraddock on May 18, 2015, 10:56:35 PM
The trouble with BT is they don't always follow the tried and tested paths, preferring to experiment and add their own twist on standards which doesn't always help things along when technology moves on.



Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 19, 2015, 01:59:37 AM
yep
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 19, 2015, 09:28:02 PM
We had a loss of sync at around 02:20 on 15 May. Cabinet is ECI, router is Sky SR102. Latency is higher by a couple of ms (20% in absolute terms).

That's four loss of sync this year - one was Sky flashing the router, the rest have been BT turning g.INP on/off/god knows now in the early hours. Prior to that the line was up for just over 6 months.

Can you imagine what's going to happen if BT ever try to turn on vectoring?

Im hoping to get permission to officially quote something, but for now, if you are on an ECI cab then, just take my word that it won't have been anything to do with G.INP.*
 
Im on an ECI cab and the only downtime/disturbances Ive seen were related to MSE bRAS (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/MSE_BRAS.htm) backhaul changes.   Most of that work was done late last year, but there are still the odd routing changes going on. 


*barring a couple of test cabs
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 20, 2015, 04:16:12 PM
I had an outage yesterday where the net just died for about a minute, but oddly I had no loss of sync or loss of ppp session.

So was probably some kind of backhaul/transit issue.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: licquorice on May 22, 2015, 11:39:03 AM
Posted on the BT Community Forum by one of the Mods this morning.

"Thank you for your continued patience.  As you know Openreach recently carried out a trial to address the reports on this thread with regards to G.INP.  Openreach are very happy with the results of the trail and after some consultation they have now decided to roll this fix out across the network.

The repair is due to roll out for all relevant customers within the next few weeks, but unfortunately we are not able to put anyone to the head of the queue

 I would like to thank everyone that has contributed on this thread and for the patience you have shown."
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on May 22, 2015, 12:15:00 PM
Good news. Cheers.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 22, 2015, 12:28:39 PM
Excellent News  :yay:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on May 22, 2015, 12:34:21 PM
The repair is due to roll out for all relevant customers within the next few weeks, but unfortunately we are not able to put anyone to the head of the queue
Does anyone know what they have fixed? Is this good news for people with ECI cabinets or does it just fix problems with Ginp on Huwaii cabinets? Thanks
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: simoncraddock on May 22, 2015, 12:39:09 PM
Sound like the Huawei Cab>ECI modem fix.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on May 22, 2015, 12:39:39 PM
Some great news.

I knew there was a problem with ECI cabinets, but, what was problems with Ginp on Huwaii cabinets?



Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: simoncraddock on May 22, 2015, 12:42:40 PM
Speed drop and added latency when using ECI modem on lines served by Huawei cabs.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 22, 2015, 12:52:25 PM
Quote
Openreach are very happy with the results of the trail and after some consultation they have now decided to roll this fix out across the network.

Thanks for that licquorice.    I havent been following the trials too closely this past week because Ive been elsewhere most of the time, but last I heard they'd 'fixed' the interleaving issue which resulted in latency returning to normal, but they still left on Error Correction so not everyone regained sync speed lost because of the RS overheads.

In fact correspondence I had from Openreach earlier this week seemed to imply Error Correction was still applied.   Has this changed since?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 22, 2015, 12:54:34 PM
Sound like the Huawei Cab>ECI modem fix.

Its not an ECI fix, afaik its more of a DLM /technology type change.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 22, 2015, 01:18:14 PM
Seems some new firmware has been rolled to HH5A trial hubs, rumours are its to do with g.inp.

Not much info on the effect of DLM changes on ECI devices, one guy posted some info that suggest improvement was lacking but then I seen others who said they recovered performance at least on pings (not sure about speeds).

I asked someone I know who works in Belgium for Belgacom (their version of BT) and he said fast path can be used on upstream with g.inp on downstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: underzone on May 22, 2015, 02:58:15 PM
That news has made my day! I thought my ECI cab was obsolete!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ragnarok on May 22, 2015, 04:19:01 PM
That news has made my day! I thought my ECI cab was obsolete!

There was no specificity in the news, all we can read into it at the moment is that they are happy with the way this new trial configuration worked. They didn't mention which cabs it was, I can only assume it was huawei cabs and reducing or eliminating interleaving, on slightly or fully incompatible devices.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 22, 2015, 04:43:40 PM
also bear in mind openreach been happy might not mean the same thing as end users been happy, we need to wait and see.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 22, 2015, 06:49:18 PM
we need to wait and see.

That sounds like good advise.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ragnarok on May 22, 2015, 11:45:49 PM
also bear in mind openreach been happy might not mean the same thing as end users been happy, we need to wait and see.

Some of us are very hard to please! I suspect we'll get the usual drip feed, or here about it first when forum members report changes to their lines.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 23, 2015, 07:04:58 PM
UPDATE

I'm seeing the rumour mill starting again and misquoting :( so I think we need to bring back some facts.  I have some information direct from Openreach, some of the information is incomplete and needs further clarification, but from what I have so far, we may at least be able to fill in some of the blanks:


There is no definition of what BT call 'the fix'.   Lines appear to have been put on FAST path, but its unclear if Error Correction has been turned off and what effect this has on the sync speed.  The previous non Re-Tx profile automatically applied Interleaving.  This is what has now been removed.

I not aware of an ECI modem software fix being rolled out to enable upstream g.inp as per what TP-Link has done.  I have asked for clarification on this, but in the absence of hard facts, its possible that it could be a hardware limitation of the individual Customer Premise Equipment (CPE) for more information why this may be see information on G.INP below. 

It may be possible to update the HomeHub 5A's as they have different internal hardware to the ECI modems and may have more memory and processing power due to it being a full modem/router.  I believe it has a more powerful PSU but I dont know for sure.   



More info on G.INP/Re-Transmission.

Because of the way G.INP works, it requires a retransmission buffer which temporary stores all transmitted data until the other end acknowledges safe receipt of the data.  If the receiving end Frame Check Sequence (FCS) is corrupt then data can be restored from the buffer.  The modem/router is responsible for storing re-tx upstream data and obviously this requires that the CPE has sufficient memory and processing resources.  G.INP typically causes latency of 1.5 - 2ms each way, but it is minimal compared to older form of Interleaving (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm) and Reed Solomon encoding (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/error_correction.htm#RS).

Note that the 'local' device is responsible for buffering of the transmitted data.  The CPE is responsible for buffering the upstream data it sends.  The DSLAM is responsible for buffering any data it transmits ie it's upstream data which will be the CPE downstream.   

Where this leaves the ECI DSLAMs, I dont know.  I have asked for clarification but nothing has been forthcoming so far.
 
Quote from: BT Openreach
"although ECI equipment (either modems or DSLAMS) doesn’t currently support upstream retransmission"

Souce = ISPreview (http://link=http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/04/bt-openreach-briefs-uk-fttc-fibre-broadband-isps-on-g-inp-issues.html)



To clarify further (This info is not from Openreach)

- Interleaving causes DELAY - ie increase in latency/ping times. Interleaving alone does NOT cause reduction of sync speed.
- Error Correction is the transmission of redundant data so that data can be recovered in the event of small noise bursts. The redundant data causes overheads and the reduction in sync speed.

Historically BT switched on Error Correction and Interleaving at the same time, but they are totally independent.  It is possible to use Error Correction on 'FAST' path.  This will restore latency but will not recover any of the large losses in sync speed.

Because of the inability to log proper stats on the HomeHub5 & ECI modems, it is impossible to tell what Openreach have done to resolve this situation.  I've seen mention that most seem to have recovered latency but not all have recovered the loss in sync speed.   There is only one result that I've seen whose stats I would consider trustworthy.  They do appear to have recovered some of their sync speed, but because that particular line was able to sync easily at 80/20 its unclear if Error Correction has been turned off.  **  There is still the odd report of non recovery of full sync speed :/

----
*bar a few trial cabinets. (We are already aware of these ie Martlesham Heath).

** Line is now syncing at 79906 with a max data rate of 88845, so there is a small amount of overhead less in this case.  Because the max attainable is more than the sync, its unclear how much of this is overheads and how much it would affect lines previously unable to attain the full 80/20.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: underzone on May 23, 2015, 07:24:00 PM
Not good news for ECI EU's  :no:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM

  • The changes will be more of a DLM type configuration ie if the modem does not support G.INP then it will be moved over to the (new) non-ReTx default profile which can use both Interleaving and Error Correction if need be.  The DSLAM is able to detect if the CPE is G.INP compatible or not


Thankyou Kitz for this update and the above info says to me if you want full G.INP enabled on your line your will need to purchase a G.INP capable modem and also be on the Huawei cabinet at least the DSLAM is able to detect it this time and make a better choice for the end-users current hardware.

I guess OR needed to find a workable compromise for all FTTC modems and then start to set their sights on the ECI cabinet to get G.INP working  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 23, 2015, 08:01:25 PM
I guess OR needed to find a workable compromise for all FTTC modems and then start to set their sights on the ECI cabinet to get G.INP working  :-\

I must stress that I dont know what is going on with the ECI cabs other than it appears to have come to a halt. 

I must also stress that it is the statement by Openreach themselves about the mention of upstream on the DSLAM which has caused confusion about its capability.  I am trying to get clarification,  so we cant jump to conclusions just yet, but their specific inclusion of DSLAM and knowing that its the local device that deals with the upstream data casts some doubt that needs clearing up.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Mr_Custard on May 23, 2015, 08:12:12 PM
Certainly after the cockup they made of g.inp they wont be keen on vectoring now.

How they can make such a hash of g.inp I dont know, its years old tech.

I hope they do go ahead with vectoring. I'm on the vectoring trial and the improvement to my line is significant, it would be shameful not to go ahead.

I'm away on business, but will give some stats when I'm back in the UK, if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 23, 2015, 08:13:08 PM
yes please, before and after stats.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 23, 2015, 08:23:31 PM
Hi Mr_Custard and welcome :)

Yes please.   I take it that you must be on a Huawei cab.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 23, 2015, 09:25:21 PM
As a follow up, I've attached my newly acquired HG612 3B to my Huawei line instead of the ECI and saw a small increase in attainable sync speed but no G.INP. Then around 2pm today the modem reconnected with G.INP enabled. Yea the high latency has gone, so things are cooking now! ;D

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 24, 2015, 10:24:09 AM
Thanks for that clarification, Kitz.

Just one question though.......

You mention this:-

"Interleaving causes DELAY - ie increase in latency/ping times. Interleaving does NOT cause loss of sync speed."


For every non-G.INP VDSL2 connection that I have seen stats for since 2011, a switch from fastpath to Interleaved has ALWAYS coincided with an increase in attainable rate & definitely a decrease in sync speed.

When fastpath and/or reduced Interleaving depth have been restored, attainable rate has reduced again & sync speed has increased.

Do you have an explanation for this?

Based on what you say, my suspicion (but that's all it is) is that sync speed has been reduced by DLM to provide more stability, alongside Interleaving/delay etc.


From the limited detailed stats I have seen from G.INP active connections to date, it appears that a reduction in Bearer 0 Interleaving depth etc. has actually resulted in slightly LOWER sync speeds.


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on May 24, 2015, 10:25:54 AM
Interleaving here has lost me 6Mb of sync so yes it definitely does decrease sync speed.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on May 24, 2015, 10:31:26 AM
I'm speaking from the depths of ignorance here, but I think what Kitz was saying is that it's not the interleaving as such which decreases the sync speed, but the error correction which is usually applied at the same time (but doesn't have to be).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ejs on May 24, 2015, 11:44:26 AM
I think there can be FEC without interleaving.

But interleaving without FEC seems rather pointless!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 24, 2015, 12:38:49 PM
but I think what Kitz was saying is that it's not the interleaving as such which decreases the sync speed, but the error correction which is usually applied at the same time (but doesn't have to be).

Correct, yes thanks Eric.

The interleaving process on its own is just the chopping up and rearranging of the data stream.  - more information on Interleaving (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm).
BT have been saying since as far back as 2006 that Interleaving doesnt cause any loss in sync speed linky (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm#interleaving_disadvantages), but what is often overlooked and causes confusion is that historically BT always turned on Error Correction at the same time which does cause the overheads and therefore a reduction in sync speed.

Error Correction (or FEC) requires the transmission of redundant data, because that redundant data has to also be transmitted with the data stream, then this reduces the amount of 'real data' that can be sent.  Each line can only carry 'x' number of bits, so if the line has Reed Soloman encoding applied then the sync speed reduces by a certain percentage to allow for the transmission of those overheads.

I think there can be FEC without interleaving.

But interleaving without FEC seems rather pointless!

Correct on both points. 
Error correction is how (redundant) data is recovered, by adding interleaving to the process it spreads out the data and increases the likelyhood of error correction for longer noise bursts.   Error Correction doesnt need to be interleaved, but there's no point using Interleaving without Error Correction.   Why bother chopping up the data if there's no error correction in place to make use of the re-assembled data.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 24, 2015, 12:56:10 PM
Interleaving here has lost me 6Mb of sync so yes it definitely does decrease sync speed.

Its not the Interleaving per se which has cost you the lost sync, it's the Error Correction.   If you look at your stats you have INP = 3. 
 
INP = Impulse Noise Protection (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm#INP). 
INP uses Reed Solomon encoding to transmit redundant data and is usually used in tandem with Interleaving.   The INP parameter specifies the amount of error correction to be applied.

We often use the term interleaving very loosely, when in fact we should be using Error Correction or INP.   Its perhaps a habit that has formed in the adsl community because in days of old when both were always switched on at the same time, it was easier to identify Interleaving from the FEC to explain any increase in latency. 
But if you think about it, FEC stands for Forward Error Correction...  and thats Error Correction not Interleaving in itself. 

Now that things have changed with FTTC and they can and are being used independently we will have to be more careful about which term we use... because they are not the same thing.   

I suspected that this would cause confusion and its why I specifically added the bit at the bottom in an attempt to clarify further that they are two separate things.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 24, 2015, 01:27:11 PM
Error Correction doesnt need to be interleaved, but there's no point using Interleaving without Error Correction.   Why bother chopping up the data if there's no error correction in place to make use of the re-assembled data.


Indeed.

You may recall that for quite a few months (pre-G.INP), my connection had Interleaving depths of 1 (i.e. OFF), with zero INP, yet I did see fairly low levels of both US & DS FEC/RSCorr.


I am one of the few that has seen a slight loss in sync speed since G.INP was activated (from 22399 Kbps to currently 21912 Kbps).

It did remain at 22399 Kbps for around 40 days with a couple of resyncs during that period, so I suspect something else has been at play (maybe due to increased crosstalk and/or the slight increase in line attenuation that I see as the weather warms up every year?)

If you zoom in to the Interleaving & sync speed graphs at around Noon, 4th May in the attached montage, you will see the effects of me intentionally disabling G.INP by briefly reverting to Asbokid's SP10 firmware as an experiment.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 24, 2015, 01:27:39 PM
"Interleaving causes DELAY - ie increase in latency/ping times. Interleaving does NOT cause loss of sync speed."

I will change that to add 'alone'.   I had tried to clarify the difference between the two, but perhaps the addition of the word 'alone' in there it will make it clearer?


For every non-G.INP VDSL2 connection that I have seen stats for since 2011, a switch from fastpath to Interleaved has ALWAYS coincided with an increase in attainable rate & definitely a decrease in sync speed.

When fastpath and/or reduced Interleaving depth have been restored, attainable rate has reduced again & sync speed has increased.

Do you have an explanation for this?

Based on what you say, my suspicion (but that's all it is) is that sync speed has been reduced by DLM to provide more stability, alongside Interleaving/delay etc.


From the limited detailed stats I have seen from G.INP active connections to date, it appears that a reduction in Bearer 0 Interleaving depth etc. has actually resulted in slightly LOWER sync speeds.

For pre G.INP, it will be INP that decreases the sync speed.   

There are a couple of things I dont understand

[1] Why max attainable rate always seems to go skewy when Interleaving and Error Correction is turned on.

[2] Why /how FEC alone affects sync.  We've known for several months that BT had been dabbling with FEC without INP or Interleaving on the upstream but I could never fully understand what was happening there and if you recall in the early days I had started beginning to wonder about PhyR.   

I still see occasional FEC on my own lines upstream yet there is no INP or Interleaving.  Yet for FEC to occur then there must be some very low level redundancy somewhere.   Perhaps because so many lines can reach their upstream target easier and because Interleaving isnt applied we havent been looking closely enough as to why this could be and if its possible that BT by default is applying Error Correction and weve never noticed the loss in attainable upstream sync... and we never seem to pay much attention to upstream like we do for downstream.

Ermmm actually further to the above - Ive just looked more closely at my stats.

Quote
                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           18              150
B:              239             236
M:              1               1
T:              23              5
R:              0               16
 

There you go - the R value (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm#R) proves that BT is using a low level of upstream Error Correction by default on their DSLAMs, that isnt anything to do with the usual DLM settings.  One mystery [#2] solved.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 24, 2015, 01:54:07 PM
@ BE - Our last posts crossed.

I hadn't realised that your line was one of those which lost speed since G.INP.   For some reason I thought you had seen an improvement.
I have to admit there are some threads that Ive skimmed over or not read recently because inbetween hospitals/vets and not being here a lot of the time I am struggling very badly to keep up with everything :stress: 

Ive just tried to look at your full monty now.  Bit overwhelmed with info and took me a while to find what I was looking for, but I can see what looks like a slight decrease on about the 3rd of May which is I assume what you are talking about.  I can clearly see the spike on 4th May and that you are quite a lot worse using that f/w, so taking everything into account a guess I would think its more likely to be yet another crosstalk disturber :(

It was a good idea to use Asbokids f/w as a test, because it gives you a rough idea of what your line conditions would now be like if you were using an ECI modem on a Huawei cab.  I cant see the exact figures, but it looks like g.inp would cost you 5Mb of sync speed if you werent using the HG612 :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: les-70 on May 24, 2015, 02:03:07 PM
 It is interesting that there is low level of error correction on the upstream.  I do wonder what low level correction options are possible.  To me the silly thing about the DLM configuration, which always annoys, is always using the higher level of interleaving.   Imposing levels of interleaving which should reduce errors by a factors of 2 or 3 in stages would make the whole process much more friendly than the current approach of hit it hard and reduce errors by a large factor to very low levels.

 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 24, 2015, 02:13:13 PM
It was a good idea to use Asbokids f/w as a test, because it gives you a rough idea of what your line conditions would now be like if you were using an ECI modem on a Huawei cab.  I cant see the exact figures, but it looks like g.inp would cost you 5Mb of sync speed if you werent using the HG612 :(


My CRC & Error Seconds counts have been almost non-existent since G.INP was activated, so that's the 'improvement' I've seen.



I'm just a little concerned about what is going to happen from 26th May (or whenever the update is made to my Huawei DSLAM).

I'm hoping BTOR's changes will only really affect connections that aren't using G.INP ready modems.


The attachments show what negative effect disabling G.INP now has on my connection.

The first example is using Asbokid's SP10 firmware (not G.INP).

The second example is from today, using Wolfy's SP08 firmware (G.INP active)

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on May 24, 2015, 02:32:17 PM
Yes lets hope they don't bork things further, and cause issues to those who have benefited from G.inp
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 24, 2015, 02:35:18 PM
Yes lets hope they don't bork things further, and cause issues to those who have benefited from G.inp

It's the reason why i have gone back to using the HG612 as the modem because i just don't know if the BrightBox 2 is G.INP capable hopefully when the G.INP rollout begins again my line will pick it up again and then test the BB2 box.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 24, 2015, 02:41:39 PM
Quote
I'm just a little concerned about what is going to happen from 26th May

From what I can gather you shouldn't be affected.
 
The changes apply to the DLM's default nonReTX profile, which applies to those lines using a non-ginp compatible modem. 
The DSLAM is able to detect if the modem is g.inp compatible or not, so nothing any different should occur for those already sucessfully on a G.INP profile.



Thanks for the stats - this is very interesting because its the first full set of stats that Ive seen for any non G.INP modem and it provides a full picture of the true situation.  Something weve been unable to do in the past due to the ECI/HH5A not having access to proper stats

What would be really interesting is to compare those stats you do have so far, with a new set using Asbo's f/w after the new changes have been applied*. Did you happen to make a note of your latency ie PING to bbc whilst using the old f/w on the 4th May as it would be interesting to compare the three sets.   It may give us a much better idea just what BT are doing.



*Note changes only roll out from 26th of May and it may take several days/weeks for all cabinets to be updated.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 24, 2015, 03:02:13 PM

The changes apply to the DLM's default nonReTX profile, which applies to those lines using a non-ginp compatible modem. 
The DSLAM is able to detect if the modem is g.inp compatible or not, so nothing any different should occur for those already sucessfully on a G.INP profile.

Could i ask a question in relation to the above, if the modem is non compatible with G.INP then will that meen your line won't be G.INP enabled and how long do you think it takes the DSLAM to register a modem that is compatible with G.INP ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on May 24, 2015, 03:39:10 PM
Thanks for that clarification, Kitz.

Just one question though.......

You mention this:-

"Interleaving causes DELAY - ie increase in latency/ping times. Interleaving does NOT cause loss of sync speed."


For every non-G.INP VDSL2 connection that I have seen stats for since 2011, a switch from fastpath to Interleaved has ALWAYS coincided with an increase in attainable rate & definitely a decrease in sync speed.

When fastpath and/or reduced Interleaving depth have been restored, attainable rate has reduced again & sync speed has increased.

Do you have an explanation for this?

Based on what you say, my suspicion (but that's all it is) is that sync speed has been reduced by DLM to provide more stability, alongside Interleaving/delay etc.


From the limited detailed stats I have seen from G.INP active connections to date, it appears that a reduction in Bearer 0 Interleaving depth etc. has actually resulted in slightly LOWER sync speeds.




Thats because they enable FEC as well.

FEC and interleaving are two different things.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 24, 2015, 03:40:58 PM
From what I can gather you shouldn't be unaffected.


Unintended double negative, perhaps?
 
Quote

The changes apply to the DLM's default nonReTX profile, which applies to those lines using a non-ginp compatible modem. 
The DSLAM is able to detect if the modem is g.inp compatible or not, so nothing any different should occur for those already sucessfully on a G.INP profile.


Quote
Thanks for the stats - this is very interesting because its the first full set of stats that Ive seen for any non G.INP modem and it provides a full picture of the true situation.  Something weve been unable to do in the past due to the ECI/HH5A not having access to proper stats

What would be really interesting is to compare those stats you do have so far, with a new set using Asbo's f/w after the new changes have been applied*. Did you happen to make a note of your latency ie PING to bbc whilst using the old f/w on the 4th May as it would be interesting to compare the three sets.   It may give us a much better idea just what BT are doing.



*Note changes only roll out from 26th of May and it may take several days/weeks for all cabinets to be updated.



I will indeed try Asbo's firmware again once I'm certain that my cabinet has been updated.

Sorry, but I don't pay too much attention to latency as it never seems to be an issue here.
I don't have any records apart from an occasional Speedtest.net speed test.
From those tests, Ping is usually around 13 or so.



FWIW, 26th May is pretty much a key date for me.

It was the date my connection's intermittent line fault was finally repaired after 11 months of 'faffing about' trying to firstly deny there was a fault, then attempting to find it.

It is the date from which Huawei DSLAMS start to be updated again.




Oh. I almost forgot.........................(Don't tell Mrs. Eagle)

It's also my wedding anniversary  :angel: :lol:


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 24, 2015, 03:50:04 PM

Could i ask a question in relation to the above, if the modem is non compatible with G.INP then will that meen your line won't be G.INP enabled and how long do you think it takes the DSLAM to register a modem that is compatible with G.INP ?

Yep sure.   The DSLAM will recognise immediately if the modem is g.inp compatible or not.
If it is compatible then it will use the set G.INP profile determined by the DLM.
If it is incompatible then it falls over to the non-ReTX profiles.


What can cause delays is if the non-ReTX profile has sufficiently 'degraded' the line rate to take it into a lower banding.  If the line has been banded then it may take several days of stability before it relents on the banded profile. 
You may still see some immediate recovery though even if its just a slight increase in speed or decrease latency, it will just take longer to recover fully, in the same way that it may take a while for the DLM to relent after a line fault.  Banding is separate again from Error Correction which is separate from Interleaving.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 24, 2015, 03:58:59 PM
Unintended double negative, perhaps?

Oops :blush: Thank you I'll edit :)

Quote
I will indeed try Asbo's firmware again once I'm certain that my cabinet has been updated.

Thank you I will be most interested in seeing them :)

Quote

Sorry, but I don't pay too much attention to latency as it never seems to be an issue here.
I don't have any records apart from an occasional Speedtest.net speed test.
From those tests, Ping is usually around 13 or so.

Damn, would have been interesting to see what latency had been applied for the nonReTx profile as this was one of the major areas for complaint.   
Ive seen latency go anything up to 50ms, but at least we still do have some interesting stats to play with :)

Quote
FWIW, 26th May is pretty much a key date for me.

I hope it was a case of last but not least, and you better not forget,  otherwise you may be feeling the sharp peck of Mrs Eagle's beak.  :D
Happy Anniversary  :congrats:

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 24, 2015, 04:05:11 PM
@ BE Ive just had a look at your stats between the two

Non g.inp
Code: [Select]
D: 293   89

g.inp
Code: [Select]
D: 8    2


Looks like your latency would have increased by quite a lot. 
I dont know how to convert it into real time figures but it seems awfully high  :'(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 24, 2015, 04:24:26 PM
and/or the slight increase in line attenuation that I see as the weather warms up every year?

You are not alone BE1 with yearly attenuation fluctuation, when looking back though the stats my attenuation in winter is around 24.5 and now it's 24.8 and by July it will be 25.0, I know it does sound like very much but on the longer line it can make a difference.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 24, 2015, 04:52:52 PM
@ BE Ive just had a look at your stats between the two

Non g.inp
Code: [Select]
D: 293   89

g.inp
Code: [Select]
D: 8    2


Looks like your latency would have increased by quite a lot. 
I dont know how to convert it into real time figures but it seems awfully high  :'(

Non-G.INP (Asbo SP10)
Code: [Select]
D: 293 89
R: 16 16
INP: 3.00 4.00
delay: 8.00 8.00

G.INP (Wolfy SP08)
Code: [Select]
Bearer 0: D: 8 2
Bearer 0: R: 14 14
Bearer 0: INP 46.00 43.00
Bearer 0: INPRein: 0.00 0.00
Bearer 0: delay: 0 0

Bearer 1: D: 1 1
Bearer 1: R: 16 16
Bearer 1: INP: 2.50 4.00
Bearer 1: INPRein: 2.50 4.00
Bearer 1: delay: 0 0

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on May 24, 2015, 06:16:04 PM
Mine once the circuit had been G.inped and i swapped ECI to HG612  prior to DLM changing the profile from fall back , interleave had been on the DS only for 14 days prior to G.inp being applied which resulted in another 7-8ms of latency and a further loss of downstream sync, (throughput was reduced and IP profile set to a lower  rate) the  adding of interleave to the upstream also impacted the upstream throughput max rate

 Base Latency when fast path was 11-13ms depending which ISP gateway/endpoint i was connected to the ds interleaving added the 7-8ms  so increased to  18-21ms  then G.inp profile applied whilst using ECI resulted in a further increase of 7-8, so base latency was up to 27-29ms once G.inp working  base latency 12-13ms

Code: [Select]
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 31464 Kbps, Downstream rate = 84808 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 69311 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 10.7
Attn(dB): 13.5 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.5 3.2
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 36
B: 45 29
M: 1 1
T: 64 64
R: 14 10
S: 0.0211 0.0476
L: 22736 6717
D: 1219 673
I: 60 40
N: 60 40
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 148176 43994
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 37745881 3997337
RSCorr: 25 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 26754701 0
Data Cells: 5492 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 37 37
AS: 201

Bearer 0
INP: 3.00 4.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 6 8
PER: 1.35 4.59
OR: 141.54 73.18
AgR: 69452.43 20072.59

Bitswap: 4/4 0/0


G.inped profile after some 48hrs of swapping to HG612 modem

Code: [Select]
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= Plink log 2015.03.18 05:07:23 =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 32160 Kbps, Downstream rate = 84864 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 7.1 13.9
Attn(dB): 13.5 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.4 3.2
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 -6
B: 130 97
M: 1 1
T: 0 0
R: 8 8
S: 0.0518 0.1554
L: 21468 5457
D: 16 8
I: 139 106
N: 139 106
Q: 16 8
V: 14 2
RxQueue: 57 39
TxQueue: 19 13
G.INP Framing: 18 18
G.INP lookback: 19 13
RRC bits: 24 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 186 58
B: 0 0
M: 2 2
T: 2 2
R: 16 16
S: 5.3333 16.0000
L: 48 16
D: 3 1
I: 32 32
N: 32 32
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 4538432 1520719
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 3735 3692
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 44078 14770
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 0 0
rtx_c: 0 0
rtx_uc: 0 0

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 0 0
minEFTR: 79999 19997
errFreeBits: 73210 17995

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 9190749 0
Data Cells: 2499 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 11 1
SES: 10 0
UAS: 69 59
AS: 61

Bearer 0
INP: 46.00 47.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 0.00
OR: 0.01 0.01
AgR: 80614.82 20102.08

Bearer 1
INP: 4.00 4.00
INPRein: 4.00 4.00
delay: 3 0
PER: 16.06 16.06
OR: 95.62 31.87
AgR: 95.62 31.87

Bitswap: 0/0 0/0
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 24, 2015, 07:01:15 PM
FWIW latency with my ECI modem was ~60mS, and since changing to HG612, ~22mS. I can't be certain G.INP had been turned on the cabinet while using the ECI, but G.INP is certainly enabled now with the HG612 and switched on a little over 24hrs after swapping.

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on May 24, 2015, 11:20:41 PM
So you gained approximately 10Mb of sync when G.INP was enabled? Was that as soon as it was enabled or was there a delay?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 25, 2015, 09:48:00 AM
Had a resync this morning after over 60 days uptime. Seems upstream error correction is turned off now. No inp or interleaving level applied upstream.

Gained some attainable sync speed as well and the Snr margin has increased slightly. Upstream sync speed dropped 1kbps too so guessing it's to do with the change to software on the cabs.

G.inp is still enabled though. Huawei everything for me cab and HG612.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on May 25, 2015, 10:13:31 AM
So you gained approximately 10Mb of sync when G.INP was enabled? Was that as soon as it was enabled or was there a delay?

He not the only on to see gains, I also got around 10Mb when G.INP was switched on.
But, I noticed looking at DSLStats, Interleave is on,& next to is (8).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 25, 2015, 10:18:46 AM
So you gained approximately 10Mb of sync when G.INP was enabled? Was that as soon as it was enabled or was there a delay?

I too nearly gained 10mbps sync. Also saw zero crc and ES counts after G.INP was enabled. Now at full sync, was around the 71mb mark. Ping times decreased a lot as well.

And as soon as G.INP is enabled, its when the line resyncs so you'll see the speed increase immediately, if you're using Tony's brilliant MDWS site, an email will also be generated to inform you its been enabled.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 25, 2015, 10:21:01 AM
But, I noticed looking at DSLStats, Interleave is on,& next to is (8).

Interleave being on is part of the G.INP process, you'll notice your INP level is a high value too.

My Interleave level is 16 with G.INP and INP level is 48. The DSLAM decides depending on your lines conditions what levels of INP and Interleave to apple for the G.INP process. Although you should note Delay is 0 even though interleaving is applied.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 25, 2015, 11:54:17 AM
So you gained approximately 10Mb of sync when G.INP was enabled? Was that as soon as it was enabled or was there a delay?

Just to be clear.  That should be more like regained 10Mbps in respect of how much speed was lost through using an ECI modem and a non-ReTX profile.  10Mbps is a typical overnight loss seen by a line which was is using an ECI modem after G.INP was applied.  By switching to a HG612 users regain the lost 10Mbps

You are in a totally different position in that G.INP hasn't been enabled at all on your line and you are on one of the 'old' DLM profiles.  I don't want you under the false hope that when Openreach eventually turn g.inp back on for all Huawei lines that anyone previously not on a g.inp profile will automatically gain 10Mbps.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 25, 2015, 04:26:06 PM
Once the 2nd G.INP rollout on the 26th has begun it could take upto 6 weeks before it hits my cabinet as the 1st G.INP rollout took ages and if your an impatient person like me it will feel a lot longer.

And my sync should increase by 2-3 Mbps if all go's well but this time the line has a higher Interleave DS depth of 593 and 1 on the US were as when the 1st G.INP rollout started this line was on a strange fastpath profile depth 17 on DS and 8 on US
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: currytop on May 25, 2015, 10:15:54 PM
So you gained approximately 10Mb of sync when G.INP was enabled? Was that as soon as it was enabled or was there a delay?

Sorry Alec, not sure if you were addressing me or not? But in my case max attainable DS with the ECI was ~42Mbps (service capped at 40Mbps). On swapping to the HG612, max attainable rose to ~45.5Mbps but no G.INP and interleave depth still ~1350. A little over 24hrs later I discovered G.INP was active and max attainable ~47-48Mbps. In the first phase of using the HG612 latency had fallen to around 35-40mS, and once G.INP was active around 22mS.

Like I say I can't be sure G.INP was already enabled on the line beforehand, but the timing is pretty coincidental.

Steve
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Tazz on May 26, 2015, 08:13:41 PM
Can someone tell me if G.INP always has a min of 8ms Interleaving? Since it was enable I have been unable to get it lower I was on fast path before:

            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     15.9      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not monitored      
Connection speed (kbps):   79998      20000
SNR margin (dB):           6.2      9.1
Power (dBm):               14.2      6.8
Interleave depth:          8      8
INP:                       45.00      47.00
G.INP:                     Enabled      
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 26, 2015, 10:58:07 PM
So what is the deal with the future of the ECI modem - Should people be buying a HG612 or should they be waiting to see what happens with the ECI ??
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 26, 2015, 10:59:36 PM
Can someone tell me if G.INP always has a min of 8ms Interleaving? Since it was enable I have been unable to get it lower I was on fast path before:

            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     15.9      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not monitored      
Connection speed (kbps):   79998      20000
SNR margin (dB):           6.2      9.1
Power (dBm):               14.2      6.8
Interleave depth:          8      8
INP:                       45.00      47.00
G.INP:                     Enabled

I believe that isn't 8ms interleaving, it's level 8. This is normal, it can be any value, mines 16 for example. It depends on the line conditions on sync, what Interleave level is applied to work with the G.INP.

G.INP will have some delay, and this can increase with noise bursts.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on May 27, 2015, 11:05:19 AM
From memory, I think 8ms is the lowest of the settings ?? I can't recall seeing 4ms or 2ms ?? As jid points out though, they do increment upwards …… i.e.: 32, 64 etc

Edited, as put 'kid' ..... not 'jid'.  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Tazz on May 27, 2015, 12:49:39 PM
Got it. Many thanks guys. I am happy with it being 8 tbh still good pings  ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 27, 2015, 06:48:51 PM
To clear something up for me please if you can..

I know ECI cabs are yet to be looked at, but does anyone know if the DSLAM on the ECI will be problematic? - I think it would be rough going if BT Openreach deploy a system that spoils a decent line and slows sync speed down.

So if you are on an ECI cab it is not worth getting an Huawei HG612 3B as the DSLAM will not be able to run G.INP in both up and down directions?

If no one knows then Openreach need to clarify this. I would be annoyed to go from a 6ms ping and 75mb download 18 upload using an ECI cab and modem to 4 times the latecny and losing 15meg off my download and whatever off upload.

That would probably force me back to the over utilized Virgin Media network. At least there network is equal to a degree - unlike this Huawei vs ECI lottery. - As far as I see it anyway?!?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 27, 2015, 07:14:36 PM
I think AndyH once remarked that you don't want it on an ECI cab as it introduces a lot of latency.

I see Openreach have begun turning it off on upstream connections no doubt due to BT Retail's stupid policy of handing out HH5A's to everyone regardless of cab make. So everyone else has to suffer due to BT Retail's stupidity.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 27, 2015, 07:20:26 PM
Correct I do not want G.INP enabled on my ECI cab. I have even gone to BT Openreach with this, but until someone somewhere can confirm I have my concerns with it.

You mentioned about Openreach turning off G.INP Upstream off because of BT retail. What impact does this have on connections? I know this is still for the Huawei DSLAMs.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 27, 2015, 07:24:02 PM
Well, they'll start off on fastpath but when noise or faults affect the upstream, they will be interleaved with a corresponding increase in latency which will be bad for gaming. Streaming should be ok though.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 27, 2015, 07:26:06 PM
Will it have an effect on speed?

Also is that much different to the old DLM system? If there were noise/faults before you would lose speed and higher latency to make the line more stable? Am I right in saying that?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 27, 2015, 07:30:17 PM
It will be the old DLM system. Those unlucky Huawei modem users on Huawei cabs will lose some of the advantages of G.Inp for gaming.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 27, 2015, 07:31:39 PM
Thanks @Dray - I understand it better now.

I was under the understanding that the DSLAM would seek out modems that could support G.INP in both directions and filter according?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 27, 2015, 07:37:51 PM
Will have to see what happens after the trial
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: andy265 on May 27, 2015, 07:52:35 PM
My line is on the G.INP ECI modem trial and I just put a Billion 8800NL on instead so I could see what the DLM was doing. At the moment there is only G.INP on the downstream, I'll leave the Billion connected and see what happens as it does support it on the upstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on May 27, 2015, 07:58:22 PM
I think AndyH once remarked that you don't want it on an ECI cab as it introduces a lot of latency.

My understanding is that the emanations from AndyH have been discredited and should be ignored.  :-X
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 27, 2015, 08:31:16 PM
My line is on the G.INP ECI modem trial and I just put a Billion 8800NL on instead so I could see what the DLM was doing. At the moment there is only G.INP on the downstream,

Was there not a config setting on the 8800NL GUI to turn on/off PHyR on the upstream ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: andy265 on May 27, 2015, 08:37:03 PM
Was there not a config setting on the 8800NL GUI to turn on/off PHyR on the upstream ?
Yes, I have up and down ticked. Up is off by default, but I turned it on before the router was connected to the line. I've attached a screenshot.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 27, 2015, 08:37:13 PM
I think AndyH once remarked that you don't want it on an ECI cab as it introduces a lot of latency.

My understanding is that the emanations from AndyH have been discredited and should be ignored.  :-X
Well we'll see if it comes true or not :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: underzone on May 27, 2015, 08:57:14 PM
My line is on the G.INP ECI modem trial and I just put a Billion 8800NL on instead so I could see what the DLM was doing. At the moment there is only G.INP on the downstream, I'll leave the Billion connected and see what happens as it does support it on the upstream.

Any chance you could leave the Billion 8800NL on and have it upload the line stats to:

http://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/

Pretty please?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 09:43:11 PM
I have on a couple of occasions attempted to clarify the situation on the ECI's with Openreaches Director of Network Strategy and Chief Engineer whom Im told by their CEO is the best person to answer.  Unfortunately the answers that I do have so far only raise further questions which is why I can't say anything for definite as some of it seems to imply what was happening and not will happen after they've made the next batch of changes.

All I can say for certain is that there's nothing in the immediate future for the ECI's, but it will likely be reviewed after the new changes have all been rolled out to all of the Huawei's. So hopefully in a couple of months we will have a better idea whats happening with the ECI's
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 09:50:46 PM
Since Ive asked for permission to quote and Ive not had any objection,  then I presume that there is no issue with releasing the following information, which I think most of us had guessed they were doing this anyhow.

Quote
we have been working closely with industry on our approach to the application of interleaving where upstream retransmission is not supported, and will be providing an update on progress more widely soon.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 27, 2015, 10:04:58 PM
So, it appears from that statement that users with HG612 or some other modems that are both downstream & upstream G.INP retransmission capable/ready will not be negatively affected by the application of interleaving when connected to Huawei DSLAMS.

i.e. the very low interleaving depths of 16 or in most cases lower that we have seen since G.INP was activated will remain?

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: andy265 on May 27, 2015, 10:09:30 PM
Any chance you could leave the Billion 8800NL on and have it upload the line stats to:
http://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/
Pretty please?

OK, as you asked so nicely :P
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 27, 2015, 10:13:13 PM
But why BE1 are we starting to see the removal of G.INP on the upstream on the MKII rollout any change on my old MK1 G.INP rollout on upstream will have a negative result on my line  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 27, 2015, 10:16:02 PM
I'm afraid I can't really answer that, unless it only affects those modems such as ECI, HH5A etc. that aren't G.INP capable on the upstream direction.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 27, 2015, 10:20:25 PM
I'm afraid I can't really answer that, unless it only affects those modems such as ECI, HH5A etc. that aren't G.INP capable on the upstream direction.

But it was posted by a member that a HG612 modem on a Huawei cabinet lost G.INP on their upstream I can't verify this as there is nothing to backup the claim  :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 27, 2015, 10:26:53 PM
Well, going off the timing of the initial G.INP rollout, it could be 3 or 4 weeks before they get round to any adjustments via my cabinet.

I will of course post here if I see anything.

I'll also be testing with Asbo's original SP10 firmware (NOT G.INP capable) & reporting back if/when anything happens here.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 10:28:08 PM
Quote
So, it appears from that statement that users with HG612 or some other modems that are both downstream & upstream G.INP retransmission capable/ready will not be negatively affected by the application of interleaving when connected to Huawei DSLAMS.

afaik that should be correct.
What they have been working on is a solution for incompatible modems by changing the profiles for non ReTx modems.  The first thing that the DSLAM does before selecting the DLM profile is check whether the modem is g.inp compatible or not.  I went into a little more depth on the 'nonRe-Tx' profiles in my update last week (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.315.html).

FYI attached is an example of the ReTX parameters that be configured by the DLM.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ip75 on May 27, 2015, 10:29:04 PM
I'm afraid I can't really answer that, unless it only affects those modems such as ECI, HH5A etc. that aren't G.INP capable on the upstream direction.

But it was posted by a member that a HG612 modem on a Huawei cabinet lost G.INP on their upstream I can't verify this as there is nothing to backup the claim  :(

If you're referring to me, my stats are on MDWS. Re sync was 06:36 on the 26th May.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 10:29:32 PM
I'm afraid I can't really answer that, unless it only affects those modems such as ECI, HH5A etc. that aren't G.INP capable on the upstream direction.

But it was posted by a member that a HG612 modem on a Huawei cabinet lost G.INP on their upstream I can't verify this as there is nothing to backup the claim  :(

Perhaps it didn't need it?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 27, 2015, 10:30:02 PM
I'm afraid I can't really answer that, unless it only affects those modems such as ECI, HH5A etc. that aren't G.INP capable on the upstream direction.

But it was posted by a member that a HG612 modem on a Huawei cabinet lost G.INP on their upstream I can't verify this as there is nothing to backup the claim  :(

I've seen this happen on mine, gone to Fastpath on Upstream now, and G.INP only on Downstream - all the stats are on MDWS :) Resync on the 25/5/15.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 27, 2015, 10:30:35 PM
I'm afraid I can't really answer that, unless it only affects those modems such as ECI, HH5A etc. that aren't G.INP capable on the upstream direction.

But it was posted by a member that a HG612 modem on a Huawei cabinet lost G.INP on their upstream I can't verify this as there is nothing to backup the claim  :(

Could be, but now my upstream ES count is increasing, so seems G.INP was helping ???

Perhaps it didn't need it?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 27, 2015, 10:32:32 PM
Are you & ip75 both using HG612 modems or maybe a Billion or ZyXel?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 27, 2015, 10:34:16 PM
Are you & ip75 both using HG612 modems or maybe a Billion or ZyXel?

HG612 with wolfy's latest firmware I'm using

Code: [Select]
xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 30714 Kbps, Downstream rate = 82800 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.6 15.1
Attn(dB): 15.5 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.6 6.6
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 26
B: 130 237
M: 1 1
T: 0 42
R: 8 16
S: 0.0518 0.3781
L: 21468 5374
D: 16 1
I: 139 127
N: 139 254
Q: 16 0
V: 14 0
RxQueue: 60 0
TxQueue: 20 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 20 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 186 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 5.3333 0.0000
L: 48 0
D: 3 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 1533486
OHFErr: 0 162
RS: 1355617520 2033848
RSCorr: 7019640 1110
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 15001649 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 180019051 0
RSCorr: 8 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 2448301 9785
rtx_c: 2409703 6451
rtx_uc: 76978 0

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 83966 167
minEFTR: 79982 19991
errFreeBits: 651307888 1655204713

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 2711175453 0
Data Cells: 188806563 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 77 121
SES: 31 0
UAS: 116 95
AS: 240968

Bearer 0
INP: 48.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 3.98
OR: 0.01 64.22
AgR: 80614.82 20063.54

Bearer 1
INP: 4.00 0.00
INPRein: 4.00 0.00
delay: 3 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 95.62 0.01
AgR: 95.62 0.01

Bitswap: 157969/157969 623/624

Total time = 1 days 23 hours 25 min 26 sec
FEC: 201909852 73922
CRC: 7800 176
ES: 77 121
SES: 31 0
UAS: 116 95
LOS: 2 0
LOF: 20 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 10 min 26 sec
FEC: 32697 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 46822 6
CRC: 0 1
ES: 0 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 23 hours 25 min 26 sec
FEC: 2675194 351
CRC: 0 57
ES: 0 36
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 2996217 427
CRC: 0 60
ES: 0 43
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 2 days 18 hours 56 min 7 sec
FEC: 7019640 1110
CRC: 0 162
ES: 0 109
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
#
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 27, 2015, 10:34:25 PM
Quote
So, it appears from that statement that users with HG612 or some other modems that are both downstream & upstream G.INP retransmission capable/ready will not be negatively affected by the application of interleaving when connected to Huawei DSLAMS.

afaik that should be correct.
What they have been working on is a solution for incompatible modems by changing the non-ReTx profiles.  The first thing that the DSLAM does before selecting the DLM profile is check whether the modem is g.inp compatible or not.  I went into a little more depth on the 'nonRe-Tx' profiles in my update last week (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.315.html).

FYI attached is an example of the ReTX parameters that be configured by the DLM.

Thanks, kitz.

I hoped you would spot my question & re-confirm what you had mentioned previously.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 27, 2015, 10:36:31 PM
Are you & ip75 both using HG612 modems or maybe a Billion or ZyXel?

HG612 with wolfy's latest firmware I'm using

Hmm.

I might see something in due course via my HG612 then.

I have to say that some of BTOR's statements can be a little ambiguous at times, at least for us EUs.


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 27, 2015, 10:38:04 PM
Are you & ip75 both using HG612 modems or maybe a Billion or ZyXel?

HG612 with wolfy's latest firmware I'm using

Hmm.

I might see something in due course via my HG612 then.

I have to say that some of BTOR's statements can be a little ambiguous at times, at least for us EUs.

Kitz's theory may be right though, the line may have simply not needed it, the resync was the 25th, and the roll out for the new DLM profiles was the 26th wasn't it?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ip75 on May 27, 2015, 10:38:52 PM
HG612 here too.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 10:39:30 PM
I'm afraid I can't really answer that, unless it only affects those modems such as ECI, HH5A etc. that aren't G.INP capable on the upstream direction.

But it was posted by a member that a HG612 modem on a Huawei cabinet lost G.INP on their upstream I can't verify this as there is nothing to backup the claim  :(

Perhaps it didn't need it?
Could be, but now my upstream ES count is increasing, so seems G.INP was helping ???

I dont know for certain.... 
But you are still below the 300 MTBE limit which DLM considers ok?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 27, 2015, 10:41:16 PM

I dont know for certain.... 
But you are still below the 300 MTBE limit which DLM considers ok?

Don't know, but either way, upstream isn't of a concern to me so I didn't think it was a major issue :-[

The resync did improve a few things, the SNR margin increased a bit downstream, pings etc all remained the same though
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 10:51:14 PM
Thanks, kitz.

I hoped you would spot my question & re-confirm what you had mentioned previously.

Actually I should clarify on that and say "profiles for non ReTx modems" which is slightly more correct.   I'll change my post for the sake of clarity.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 27, 2015, 10:55:34 PM
Don't know, but either way, upstream isn't of a concern to me so I didn't think it was a major issue :-[

I would not dismiss your upstream errors as it also part of the overall MTBE count  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on May 27, 2015, 10:57:34 PM
Don't know, but either way, upstream isn't of a concern to me so I didn't think it was a major issue :-[

I would not dismiss your upstream errors as it also part of the overall MTBE count  ;)

It only affects upstream profiling though doesn't it? Next step should be upstream G.INP technically if we assume DLM removed G.INP up if it didn't need it.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 11:02:42 PM
I have to say that some of BTOR's statements can be a little ambiguous at times, at least for us EUs.

Your'e not wrong there.   The main reason why Im not quoting all the info I do have and blindly say "Openreach says blah blah blah" because some of it IMHO simply raises more questions, so Im just trying to interpret what info I get and ask for further clarification.    We all know that the statement released to TBB was wrong about the ECI modems, and also the info given to ISPr also raised more questions as it didnt appear to be what we were seeing in the field.

I wish I could say I knew all the answers but I dont :/
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 11:04:18 PM
Don't know, but either way, upstream isn't of a concern to me so I didn't think it was a major issue :-[

I would not dismiss your upstream errors as it also part of the overall MTBE count  ;)

But they are counted separately.   The upstream and downstream are configured independently.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 27, 2015, 11:10:31 PM
It only affects upstream profiling though doesn't it? Next step should be upstream G.INP technically if we assume DLM removed G.INP up if it didn't need it.

Yes if the Upstream is quiet (low noise) then fastpath is a better option than the US being stuck on the G.INP profile as long as it can move from one to the other on the fly when the upstream incounters longer periods of noise it will work very well indeed.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 27, 2015, 11:11:44 PM
As I understand it, they are removing the upstream G.Inp in order to test that scenario.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 11:17:41 PM
It only affects upstream profiling though doesn't it? Next step should be upstream G.INP technically if we assume DLM removed G.INP up if it didn't need it.

I honestly dont know the answer to that, but we know on the old system that INP was one of the parameters that could be configured to control the depth of interleaving and amount of error correction.  From the profile params above it shows that there is a specific param for RTX_Mode, which I suppose like INP could be 0 or 1 or whatever.  Without knowing what the options are for that parameter Ive no idea.. other than it does seem to be a configurable option.    I dont even know if its 0 = Off, 1 = On  or like with INP it has various numbers which defines a level - ie 3= low etc.    I know nothing about the available parameters, so your guess on that is as good as mine. :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on May 27, 2015, 11:26:54 PM
My line is on the G.INP ECI modem trial and I just put a Billion 8800NL on instead so I could see what the DLM was doing. At the moment there is only G.INP on the downstream, I'll leave the Billion connected and see what happens as it does support it on the upstream.
This is interesting news. 

When you say Ginp on the downstream is that to the end user - e.g the 80 bit of the 80/20 connection?

There was talk the ECI cabs could only do Gimp in one direction - at least if it the end users download that makes more sense than the end users upload.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 27, 2015, 11:28:12 PM
But they are counted separately.   The upstream and downstream are configured independently.

But the MTBE threshold will be much lower on the upstream than it is on the downstream and don't know how the DLM reacts when the US errored second has reached it's limited but it should not be any different than hitting 2880 ES or (2000 ES on EE) over a 24 hour period  :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 11:31:25 PM
As I understand it, they are removing the upstream G.Inp in order to test that scenario.

The testing has seen various situations and since most of those that have been testing are using HH5A and ECI modems, we dont really know whats been going on because none of those modems produce proper stats.    We've seen some lines have interleaving removed yet they still must have error correction applied.  What really would have been the most informative is for one of the testers on the trials to be using a HG612 usings Asbo f/w then we would have some decent stats.   

Now we will have to wait until its rolled out to all cabs and BE has kindly offered to roll back to Asbo f/w once he knows his cab has had the new changes applied.   Until then we wont know much for sure.   Im very dubious about results coming in from over at places such as the BT forums who are simply saying 'Yes its improved', but when you look closer its improved the latency but theyve not recovered the lost sync... or they dont have true before and after stats to compare with.   There's only one HH5A tester that I was likely to believe would be a true representation, but said person is away on holiday atm.   We are also not sure whats going on with the HH5A's either, they have had some f/w update and Im not even sure if they like the TPlink have the possibility for a proper modem fix.  It would appear there is no scope for upgrade on the ECI's which is why they are making the DLM config changes.

I'm aware theres a lot of ifs and maybes, but I'd much rather say Im unsure rather than blurt out something that later turns out to be false.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: andy265 on May 27, 2015, 11:43:03 PM
Wwhen you say Ginp on the downstream is that to the end user - e.g the 80 bit of the 80/20 connection?

There was talk the ECI cabs could only do Gimp in one direction - at least if it the end users download that makes more sense than the end users upload.
That's right, on the 80Mb bit, my download. I was on the trial as I have/had an ECI modem on a Huawei cabinet and my latency went right up when G.INP was first introduced. It seems this has been 'fixed' by removing interleaving and G.INP from the upstream.

I'm now going to leave the Billion connected so I can upload stats and see if G.INP is renabled on the upstream once a modem that supports it is connected.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 27, 2015, 11:54:09 PM
But they are counted separately.   The upstream and downstream are configured independently.

But the MTBE threshold will be much lower on the upstream than it is on the downstream

No its not - its exactly the same.   They are just counted and configured independently of each other.
If your MTBE for the upstream = 30 (or 60 for standard) then you go red and the DLM makes a change to the upstream only.
Theres no reason for it to be lower for the upstream.   An error is an error and once you are getting more than 'x' then the DLM will take appropriate action.   Thats why they use MTBE for the calculation rather than 'x' per day.

Quote
and don't know how the DLM reacts when the US errored second has reached it's limit

Then it applies changes to the upstream only - as long as the downstream hasnt also reached its limit.

As proof of this you only have to look at my own line last October when I had some sort of line fault that affected only my upstream.    My upstream MTBE was less than 30 and so the ILQ went red the DLM applied Interleaving the next day.   My downstream was completely untouched.  It went through the same changes & process as it would if the problem was on downstream.   First it applied Interleaving (& error correction) , then it changed level of INP (which in turn increased the depth of interleaving & ErrCorrection) , then it banded the sync.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 28, 2015, 12:09:31 AM
I'm now going to leave the Billion connected so I can upload stats and see if G.INP is renabled on the upstream once a modem that supports it is connected.

Thank you :)  Although I suspect it may not.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 28, 2015, 12:11:14 AM
Yes Kitz it's a bit like getting results on a general election from an election poll we will not know the final result until all the votes are counted but we shall get some idea once we have past the 70% mark.

The difference this time with the Huawei MK2 rollout most MDWS users have had G.INP inplemented on their line since late march, it's going to be harder this time to see any big changes during the rollout apart from myself and another as X G.INP users  >:(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on May 28, 2015, 01:28:27 AM
FWIW, I'm currently adding an email alert facility to HG612 Modem Stats.

Although never previously used for anything in publicly released updates, a program named Blat.exe already resides in the Apps folder.

It will optionally email users something on these lines:-

Code: [Select]
Hi Bald_Eagle1,


This email is to alert you that the connection resynced at hh:mm:ss.

                   Current Stats               Previous Stats
                   =============               ==============
Downstream Sync      21432Kbps                    22399Kbps
Upstream Sync         5000Kbps                     5000Kbps
Bearer 0 DS INP       47.00                        47.00
Bearer 0 US INP       46.00                        46.00

Please see the attached xlogfile.txt file for ALL the current stats


Regards,


The HG612 Modem Stats Team
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 28, 2015, 01:34:06 AM
Interesting - thanks BE
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: andy265 on May 29, 2015, 01:56:53 PM
I'm now going to leave the Billion connected so I can upload stats and see if G.INP is renabled on the upstream once a modem that supports it is connected.
Thank you :)  Although I suspect it may not.

Looks like you are right, there was a resync caused by me upgrading the billion's firmware this morning, other than that, no change so far.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 29, 2015, 06:45:39 PM
Looks like you are right, there was a resync caused by me upgrading the billion's firmware this morning, other than that, no change so far.

It's seems it not unusual for some lines to have G.INP removed on the upstream, had a wee look into MDWS and some users have the same as yourself and that was on the 1st rollout of G.INP before it was halted pre 26th of May.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 29, 2015, 07:42:38 PM
I can't remember if I have asked this but can someone please answer.

Is there any point in me buying a HG612 3B? I am currently on an ECI cab with an ECI modem. Will having a HG612 do anything for me if they ever enable G.INP? Or is the ECI cab no better than the modem?

Thanks,
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 29, 2015, 08:00:14 PM
I can't remember if I have asked this but can someone please answer.

Is there any point in me buying a HG612 3B? I am currently on an ECI cab with an ECI modem. Will having a HG612 do anything for me if they ever enable G.INP? Or is the ECI cab no better than the modem?

Thanks,

No there is pointing in buying the HG612 3B, that was a fix when using an ECI modem on the Huawie cab to enable the full G.INP profile which has now started again.

I am sure you are aware that G.INP has not been implemented on the ECI cabinet at the moment so any change of VDSL2 modem be it ECI or HG612 will not enable G.INP on your line.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 29, 2015, 08:06:51 PM
I can't remember if I have asked this but can someone please answer.

Is there any point in me buying a HG612 3B? I am currently on an ECI cab with an ECI modem. Will having a HG612 do anything for me if they ever enable G.INP? Or is the ECI cab no better than the modem?

Thanks,

No there is pointing in buying the HG612 3B, that was a fix when using an ECI modem on the Huawie cab to enable the full G.INP profile which has now started again.

I am sure you are aware that G.INP has not been implemented on the ECI cabinet at the moment so any change of VDSL2 modem be it ECI or HG612 will not enable G.INP on your line.

Thank you.

I understand that the ECI currently doesn't offer G.INP - But in the event they were to enable it anytime in the future would it be pointless having a HG612?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 29, 2015, 08:56:56 PM
We dont know yet exactly what is happening with the ECI's.  The most we know for certain,  is that the situation is up for review when BT finish the Huawei changes.  In also still awaiting confirmation on Upstream.   At least with the HG612 you can get line stats.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on May 29, 2015, 10:36:51 PM
We dont know yet exactly what is happening with the ECI's.  The most we know for certain,  is that the situation is up for review when BT finish the Huawei changes.  In also still awaiting confirmation on Upstream.   At least with the HG612 you can get line stats.

No worries,

Was just debating about buying one and keeping in stock along with my spare ECI.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 30, 2015, 12:13:15 AM
If your still impatient for the MK2 G.INP rollout on Huawei cabinets this is only day 4 and looking back to the start of this thread each day 45000 customers will be enabled if you take the larger 288 cabinet for example that works out as 156 cabs per day, so on the forth day thats 625 cabinets with the MK2 G.INP rollout completed.

it kind of makes me wonder how they start the rollout as we know are exchanges has a four digit alphabetic code so they must start on A first and Z last  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on May 30, 2015, 07:36:55 AM

It kind of makes me wonder how they start the rollout as we know are exchanges has a four digit alphabetic code so they must start on A first and Z last  :-\

 :( :( :(

Long wait, my exchange is 'SSKMD' Kingsmead, Bath.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 30, 2015, 09:20:57 AM
Quote
it kind of makes me wonder how they start the rollout as we know are exchanges has a four digit alphabetic code so they must start on A first and Z last

No idea how they do it.   Traditionally any rollouts would tend to occur on the largest of exchanges first or perhaps regionally. 

Since MSE bRAS not all FTTC cabs are connected to their own copper exchange (theres a fairly decent percentage that arent ) and the OLT is at a larger neighbouring exchange.  It wouldnt make sense to delay rolling out to say ZZZZ exchange cabs if the OLT and Element Manager (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#element_manager) (which is where DLM info is stored & configured) - is at AAAA exchange.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on May 30, 2015, 12:36:39 PM
Exchanges codes as I know them always have 5 identifying letters ..... the first 2 are the patch area (ie: LC = Lancs and Cumbria ....... MR = Manchester) ..... the last 3 letters denote the Exchange area (ie: AOR = Ashton -on -Ribble ...... ROC = Rochdale ).

So LCROC = Lancs & Cumbria Patch - Rochdale Exchange.

But with this being BT, it's never that simple. On our Work Manager systems (The machine that issues our work), the code is ar5e about face and is presented as ROCLC.

This doesn't answer the roll-out question and I have no idea how the task is apportioned ??

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 30, 2015, 05:07:48 PM
Thats odd we only seem to have four identifying letters on most exchanges in my location, the feed for broadband comes from NIBA which is Bangor N.I.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on May 30, 2015, 07:43:17 PM
Four here too, e.g. THBT.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 30, 2015, 08:11:33 PM
I dont think there is a fixed length other than as BS says that the first 2 digits identify the region, then the remaining letters id the exchange.  For example a short snippit.

Code: [Select]
ESABB ABBEYHILL FTTC & FOD Now City of Edinburgh
EMABBOT ABBOTS BROMLEY FTTC Now East Staffordshire District (B)
EMABRIP ABBOTS RIPTON FTTC/P & FOD Now Huntingdonshire District
STABTSY ABBOTSBURY FTTC/P Now West Dorset District
SWAAI ABERAERON FTTC/P Now Sir Ceredigion - Ceredigion
NSABC ABERCHIRDER FTTC Now Aberdeenshire
WNABC ABERCONWY FTTC/P Now Conwy - Conwy
SWAAV ABERCRAVE FTTC/P Now Powys - Powys
SWABT ABERCYNON FTTC & FOD Now Rhondda, Cynon, Taf - Rhondda, Cynon, Taff
SWAA ABERDARE FTTC/P Now Rhondda, Cynon, Taf - Rhondda, Cynon, Taff
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 30, 2015, 09:55:32 PM
It's kind of interesting how OR rollout the changes as the process will not be random because it's a computer that does this not a human. so if I was an OR programmer i would program it to rollout G.INP regionally using the first two digits A-Z then B-Z and so on.

The big question is why can't they just roll it out across the UK in one day to all exchanges  instead of this 2 month slow process   :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ronski on May 30, 2015, 10:03:49 PM
Perhaps because a slow process allows for problems to be found, whereas a quick process could result in a very big problem.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 30, 2015, 10:16:18 PM
Perhaps because a slow process allows for problems to be found, whereas a quick process could result in a very big problem.

Sure the 1st rollout was nearly completed before they found a problem, all i can think of is the DSLAM must only have small window in the wee small hours for any firmware upgrades that's pushed out by the OR central computer so if all UK DSLAM went offline for 10 minutes to upgrade it might cause chaos on the infustructure.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on May 30, 2015, 11:36:50 PM
The problem will very likely be that because the rollout  involves a resync, then it would cause chaos - not particularly at the DSLAM - but at places like the the bRAS and RADIUS for authentication... and also could be problematic for the ISPs if all lines resync at a similar time.   Not only is there the issue of new DLM profiles which have to be applied and reported to the OSS..............

You'd have the bRAS going into overdrive calculating and applying millions of IPprofiles, which unless the line is syncing at max is likely to be different on each resync.  This in turn would generate lots of delta etc reports for the ISP's and in turn those like Plusnet & AAISP could suddenly find their own system swamped calculating their own max throughput profiles. 

The BT RADIUS server would also be very busy suddenly working out which lines should be directed to which ISP and also the ISP RADIUS servers would also be very busy trying to authenticate a huge portion of their customers all at once and dish out IP addresses and directing them to various gateways.

The system & reporting hardware at both BT and the ISPs would without doubt go into overdrive and even possible meltdown if all lines were done at the same time.  It can sometimes take a while to re-authenticate to an ISP if several pipes go down because their RADIUS gets busy and it may take a few goes.  If practically everyone had to not only resync at the same time but have new DLM and IPprofiles applied, then I'd guess that there's a good chance that something somewhere will go wrong... or at the least millions of users could all be left without a connection for a while until the system catches up.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on May 31, 2015, 01:12:58 AM
Are we looking at sometime from 1st august when this roll out should be complete and have a chance of an update on eci cabs?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on May 31, 2015, 07:50:22 PM
It looks like BT Consumer is the problem as they handed out HH5As willy-nilly and as they are the dominant ISP they can force Openreach to do the wrong thing.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on May 31, 2015, 07:59:58 PM
It looks like BT Consumer is the problem as they handed out HH5As willy-nilly and as they are the dominant ISP they can force Openreach to do the wrong thing.

You could say that also for Plusnet and EE and Sky as we don't really know which ISP all in one FTTC/modems are able to use G.INP on the upstream all we know is BT ISP HH5A and ECI modem does not but there could be plenty of others out there in the same boat.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on June 01, 2015, 10:13:58 AM
This thread has now been referenced on the Billion forum: http://www.billion.uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3522&view=unread#p12150
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 01, 2015, 09:36:20 PM
This thread has now been referenced on the Billion forum: http://www.billion.uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3522&view=unread#p12150

Thanks for the info Eric :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: simoncraddock on June 02, 2015, 06:09:39 PM
Ah well anything over and above 19999Kbit/s is really irrelevant until G.Fast is rolled out, they are still supplying you the upper limit rate. Wouldn't worry about it myself enjoy the full speed your getting, it could be far worse.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 02, 2015, 06:22:34 PM
So openreach did what I told them to do a month ago.  Leave US on fast path config.

Gezz i didnt know you had so much influence on openreach, and we shall just blame Chrysalis for any openreach mess ups in the future  :D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 03, 2015, 12:29:49 AM
I wish :)

But they seen some sense in the end I guess.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: vic0239 on June 03, 2015, 09:05:38 AM
I had a resync earlier this morning:

This is to let you know that a resync/restart occurred on your line at 03-06-2015 06:43 local time (+/- 1 minute).

Reason: 1 Remote Defect Indicator/DLM

Current Downstream Sync Rate is now 67709kbps
Current Upstream Sync Rate is now 13326kbps

My upstream interleaving is now off and upstream INP is zero, so looks like this has been rolled out to my exchange (ESGIF). Unfortunately this has taken place when my main disturber is offline and my SNRM artificially high, so I have now a higher sync speed from 58708 Kbps to 67709 Kbps. It will be interesting to see what happens when their modem is switched back on. ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 03, 2015, 05:23:56 PM
so looks like this has been rolled out to my exchange (ESGIF).

So after 9 days of the new G.INP rollout we at region ES exchanges, and a guess how they roll it out across the UK  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 03, 2015, 05:54:45 PM
Well they ain't doing it in alphabetical order  as im on an exchange that begins LC
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 03, 2015, 06:09:50 PM
Well they ain't doing it in alphabetical order  as im on an exchange that begins LC

Cheers Tommy45 that blows that theory out of the water  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 03, 2015, 07:12:36 PM
So thats another one :)
Historically, they usually do the largest exchange areas first or regionally.   Never seen them do anything alphabetically before and especially with VDSL where the headend exchange could be totally different to the local exchange.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 03, 2015, 07:29:57 PM
So thats another one :)
Historically, they usually do the largest exchange areas first or regionally.

So it will be large citys first and then larger towns second then onto to the smaller towns.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 03, 2015, 07:44:52 PM
lol...  who knows...  this is BT :D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 03, 2015, 07:59:02 PM
lol...  who knows...  this is BT :D

Have to agree Kitz even Apple Inc is more translucent in the way the company works and your will get technical specs for Intel processor months before it's released to the general public i just don't know why they are so secretive it's only harming them and the end-user  :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: vic0239 on June 03, 2015, 09:49:31 PM
So thats another one :)
Historically, they usually do the largest exchange areas first or regionally.

So it will be large citys first and then larger towns second then onto to the smaller towns.
Well the local exchange is housed in what looks like a hut next to the phone box and according to the installer is the size of a broom cupboard. :o However the headend is probably ESHAD which is housed in somewhat larger premises serving a much larger area. I imagine the ES prefix covers most of Eastern Scotland though.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 03, 2015, 09:54:24 PM
Quote
I imagine the ES prefix covers most of Eastern Scotland though

Yep it will do - as will LC cover most of Lancashire.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bowdon on June 04, 2015, 05:20:01 PM
Would Openreach / BT be open to replacing ECI cabinets if no solution for G.INP (and I assume G.Fast when it comes out will have similar problems) can be found?

Another solution would be for BT to get a company to make their own version (or tender other companies to build it) of a cabinet specifically to Openreaches requirements, and replace ECI cabinets with that.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on June 04, 2015, 05:56:46 PM
Would Openreach / BT be open to replacing ECI cabinets if no solution for G.INP (and I assume G.Fast when it comes out will have similar problems) can be found?

Another solution would be for BT to get a company to make their own version (or tender other companies to build it) of a cabinet specifically to Openreaches requirements, and replace ECI cabinets with that.

I can't, unfortunately, honestly see BT investing in replacing the ECI cabinets, despite if they have made a mistake and G.INP is no hope for ECI cabinets. I can only hope they prioritise G.fast or some better solution for those areas which are stuck on ECI, assuming G.INP is a no go for sure.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on June 04, 2015, 06:53:48 PM
Would Openreach / BT be open to replacing ECI cabinets if no solution for G.INP (and I assume G.Fast when it comes out will have similar problems) can be found?

Another solution would be for BT to get a company to make their own version (or tender other companies to build it) of a cabinet specifically to Openreaches requirements, and replace ECI cabinets with that.

no, they'd sooner level the playing field by taking G.INP off of those lines that can use it.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 05, 2015, 01:14:04 AM
Here is the issue.

The moment they decided to rollout g.fast has probably also killed vectoring.

From their point of view when g.fast is rolled out and marketed, they want the performance gap between g.fast and vdsl2 to be as big as possible, so users are more likely to upgrade.

The right thing for them to do morally is swap out cabinets to modern equipment  and everyone has g.inp and vectoring.  But the reality will be something different.

There is also the issue of the retail isp's these guys should not be always seen as good guys against evil openreach.  I imagine when the g.inp issues started, the main thing that upset the likes of plusnet was not the fact customers lost performance, but rather their customer support services got overwhelmed and as such their support costs increased.  They have probably told openreach they dont want a repeat and as such openreach will be more passive in terms of modifying vdsl2 services in future.  This also might explain why older openreach services such as adsl never got g.inp or sra, and why of course we have DLM.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 05, 2015, 05:25:41 AM
Here is the issue.

The moment they decided to rollout g.fast has probably also killed vectoring.

From their point of view when g.fast is rolled out and marketed, they want the performance gap between g.fast and vdsl2 to be as big as possible, so users are more likely to upgrade.

The right thing for them to do morally is swap out cabinets to modern equipment  and everyone has g.inp and vectoring.  But the reality will be something different.

There is also the issue of the retail isp's these guys should not be always seen as good guys against evil openreach.  I imagine when the g.inp issues started, the main thing that upset the likes of plusnet was not the fact customers lost performance, but rather their customer support services got overwhelmed and as such their support costs increased.  They have probably told openreach they dont want a repeat and as such openreach will be more passive in terms of modifying vdsl2 services in future.  This also might explain why older openreach services such as adsl never got g.inp or sra, and why of course we have DLM.
As for reasons why BT stuck in their rut as far as DLM and allowing ISP's control over line configs go, you are  no doubt correct it's because they want to save on support costs (BT consumer)  could you imagine if they had to employ  trained staff  instead of what the currently have script monkey's it would cost them a lot, put an end to their sainsbury's vouchers and cash backs  and their  brethren Plusnet  giving away  or paying customers to sign up to their broadband
Title: Re: VDSL Re-Tx
Post by: Dray on June 05, 2015, 10:02:10 AM
I just saw this https://aastatus.net/2127

Quote
Update
Wednesday 10:36:31    Apologise for the delay in updating this post. BT have confirmed that all trial lines have been loaded with the new profiles, further to this BT have confirmed that all other affected lines have now had the new profiles loaded. That is all lines across all providers.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chilled on June 05, 2015, 10:41:38 AM
If it's of any interest my line in St Martins running form the Chirk exchange had G.INP turned off for upstream around a week ago while I was away.

We're a Connecting Shropshire Fibre roll out running off the Welsh Chirk exchange that's not had their roll out yet (BT all over Chirk so I assume it's very close now).
Title: Re: VDSL Re-Tx
Post by: kitz on June 05, 2015, 10:54:18 AM
I just saw this https://aastatus.net/2127

Quote
Update
Wednesday 10:36:31    Apologise for the delay in updating this post. BT have confirmed that all trial lines have been loaded with the new profiles, further to this BT have confirmed that all other affected lines have now had the new profiles loaded. That is all lines across all providers.

Thank you Dray - Ive updated the front pages with this info.

Its interesting that they imply that the fix has been rolled out to all Huawei cabs.   Yet there are some lines such as BaldEagle's which still has G.INP applied on the upstream.  ???
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on June 05, 2015, 11:06:26 AM
Quote
Yet there are some lines such as BaldEagle's which still has G.INP applied on the upstream.

Yes, mine too.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on June 05, 2015, 12:14:06 PM
I still seem to have it upstream too. I hope they don't remove it because it's improving my upstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ragnarok on June 05, 2015, 01:14:26 PM
I thought the fix was for modems like ECI/lantiq that can only do G.INP 1 way currently. A Profile that didn't interleave by default the upstream on a modem that doesn't do upstream G.inp or a profile that doesn't interleave by default when G.inp isn't supported at all.

BCM <> BCM equipment should be able handle it both ways no problem, So why change that when it works. Surly BT Openreach where never going to bork something that was running great.

Does make me wonder though, I mean could they have got this much more wrong?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Al1264 on June 05, 2015, 01:51:36 PM
Surly BT Openreach where never going to bork something that was running great.
We'd hope!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 05, 2015, 02:17:31 PM
Well if it has anything to do with Neil Mcrea nothing would surprise me, he really thinks he is someone don't he?, Bt those at the top who are responsible quite possibly don't know their arse from their elbow, so no wonder their plans go breasts skywards basic common sense and logic got thrown out of the window a long time ago
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 05, 2015, 03:12:52 PM
you guys still have it as no DLM action has been taken on your lines.

Unless they forcefully push out the new DLM changes then you configurations will remain the same.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 05, 2015, 03:24:40 PM
It was pushed to my connection and it hadn't had any dlm action since it got fully g.inped,
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 05, 2015, 05:29:06 PM
you guys still have it as no DLM action has been taken on your lines.

Unless they forcefully push out the new DLM changes then you configurations will remain the same.

And what about the guys who are on a huawei cabs and are still waiting for G.INP to be enable on their lines and if statement is correct  :-\ saying that BT have confirmed that all other affected lines have now had the new profiles loaded. That is all lines across all providers.

As when i look at MDWS there is about 10 or so users awaing G.INP  ???
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 06, 2015, 12:25:08 AM
I'm also aware some that people may be reading this thread just wanting updates on the current situation and may not understand linestats and secondly because this thread has also become very long, Ive split off any MK2 G.INP stats into its own thread which can be viewed here (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15561.0.html)

A quick summary:

Most people so far on the Huawei cabs appear just to have seen G.INP switched off for the upstream.  This may cause a small loss of upstream speed.
We have seen a few weird cases and at the present time it is unclear if additional DLM action has been taken for other reasons. 

Some users have seen Interleaving removed, but Error Correction is still applied to a greater extent - It may be that this is part of the 'HomeHub5A/ECI fix' as HG612 modems on the whole mostly appear to have gone back where they were pre-INP for the upstream.  More stats need to be closely looked at before we can draw any definite conclusions.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lemzip on June 06, 2015, 08:51:54 AM
you guys still have it as no DLM action has been taken on your lines.

Unless they forcefully push out the new DLM changes then you configurations will remain the same.

And what about the guys who are on a huawei cabs and are still waiting for G.INP to be enable on their lines and if statement is correct  :-\ saying that BT have confirmed that all other affected lines have now had the new profiles loaded. That is all lines across all providers.

As when i look at MDWS there is about 10 or so users awaing G.INP  ???

I can confirm that I still do not have any G.INP on my line at all. No bearer 1 on the Sky Hub 102 that is compatible. We are aware of a pattern that occured ie:

Line fault after BT noticed the G.INP issue..once repaired no G.INP was ever rolled out to these lines. I never got G.INP (new line in March) but some users who did pre issue now had it turned off post issue.

How it will affect me i have no idea as my line is good however i am wary of what lines around mine are doing getting G.INP and what affect it will have on me.

I hope BT dont forget about all of us!

Stats:

Connection Speed   39998 kbps   9999 kbps
Line Attenuation           16.7 dB   0.0 dB
Noise Margin      26.3 dB   25.25 dB
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 06, 2015, 09:02:44 AM
with such healthy snrm on both up/down dont worry about g.inp :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on June 06, 2015, 10:19:19 PM
connection been resyning on & off since 5pm today.
Interleaving been low as 2 & high as 16.


Code: [Select]
xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 3859 Kbps, Downstream rate = 13923 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 3800 Kbps, Downstream rate = 14259 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 6.0
Attn(dB): 26.7 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.6 1.7
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 -6
B: 219 228
M: 1 1
T: 0 0
R: 16 16
S: 0.4904 1.9085
L: 3850 1027
D: 8 2
I: 236 245
N: 236 245
Q: 8 2
V: 3 1
RxQueue: 12 12
TxQueue: 6 6
G.INP Framing: 18 18
G.INP lookback: 6 6
RRC bits: 24 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 90 58
B: 0 0
M: 2 2
T: 2 2
R: 16 16
S: 10.6667 16.0000
L: 24 16
D: 1 1
I: 32 32
N: 32 32
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 32496 10537
RSCorr: 78 2
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 311 314
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 1494 1257
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 12929012 1449808
rtx_c: 9340925 471698
rtx_uc: 14553236 339655

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 14176 5078
minEFTR: 14249 3799
errFreeBits: 962808844 307417316

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 110076 0
Data Cells: 12 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 8780 2895
SES: 4824 1128
UAS: 5264 4542
AS: 6

Bearer 0
INP: 43.00 41.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 0.00
OR: 0.01 0.01
AgR: 14300.07 3824.78

Bearer 1
INP: 2.50 4.00
INPRein: 2.50 4.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 16.06 16.06
OR: 47.81 31.87
AgR: 47.81 31.87

Bitswap: 0/0 0/0

Total time = 1 days 12 hours 42 min 7 sec
FEC: 170318269 6765874
CRC: 240965 11314
ES: 8780 2895
SES: 4824 1128
UAS: 5264 4542
LOS: 33 105
LOF: 285 105
LOM: 76 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 12 min 7 sec
FEC: 129946 25476
CRC: 7446 75
ES: 154 48
SES: 130 37
UAS: 411 324
LOS: 6 6
LOF: 54 6
LOM: 12 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 27055 86
CRC: 2140 0
ES: 38 0
SES: 37 0
UAS: 846 810
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 8 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 12 hours 42 min 7 sec
FEC: 13729701 2064466
CRC: 149599 3500
ES: 5505 950
SES: 2952 336
UAS: 4187 3766
LOS: 19 38
LOF: 168 38
LOM: 33 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 32849 25437
CRC: 950 130
ES: 38 41
SES: 17 23
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 5 sec
FEC: 78 2
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
#
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: vic0239 on June 07, 2015, 09:49:34 AM
I had a resync earlier this morning:

My upstream interleaving is now off and upstream INP is zero, so looks like this has been rolled out to my exchange (ESGIF). Unfortunately this has taken place when my main disturber is offline and my SNRM artificially high, so I have now a higher sync speed from 58708 Kbps to 67709 Kbps. It will be interesting to see what happens when their modem is switched back on. ;D
Disturbers modem reappeared last night and my SNRM dropped by over 3 and the attainable accordingly. However the line appears to be performing just as it was? I had expected to see a resync overnight, but I am still enjoying the faster rate. Should I just leave it be for now? I don’t see any huge numbers in the stats to worry about, at least to my untrained eye. G.INP must be doing its stuff!  ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: underzone on June 07, 2015, 02:52:01 PM
Surely such a huge margin loss can't be normal. Could you have a split pair in some cable section with your disturber/neighbour maybe?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: vic0239 on June 07, 2015, 04:15:09 PM
I have no idea. :no: This first happened back in February not long after I was connected when I suspect someone else had taken up FTTC (I was the first connection), but I've no idea who they are. My immediate neighbours don't have FTTC, but I'd love to know who it is as they appear to switch their modem off quite frequently. ::)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: les-70 on June 07, 2015, 04:39:40 PM
  I can confirm that such a large amount of crosstalk from a disturber is quite possible.  One neighbor can do the same to me but they almost never power down. I have the consolation that I do the same to them - we did a test taking it in turns to power down.  My regular off every night disturber gives about 1.4db.  Two others give similar amounts but are only off when on hols.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: vic0239 on June 07, 2015, 05:05:00 PM
I have the consolation that I do the same to them
I'd never considered that! It is a comforting feeling. :lol:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 08, 2015, 07:55:50 PM
When using Kitz's MK1 G.INP rollout date it was on the 12th Jan 2015 and it was not enable on my line until the 25th of March 2015 so had to wait 2 months and 13 days.

So have worked out that the MK2 G.INP rollout will be enabled on this line around about the 8th of August 2015 thats close to 1 out of 4 seasons.

Also noticed on MDWS (current online users) there are 20 users with the G.INP MK2 and 29 users still on G.INP MK1.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on June 09, 2015, 07:42:41 PM
Hi does anyone know if the G.INP rollout has been started again on ECI cabs there is a guy in the Plusnet forums (i'm with plusnet as well) that says he was G.INP enabled earlier this month, he said he's confirmed that with plusnet in another thread and states he is on a ECI cab,  i did say that ECI cabs haven't been Enabled since the huawei issues started but he says he's sure he is on a ECI cab. 

I'm on a ECI cab with a ECI modem myself so i have been keeping an eye on the whole G.INP issue to see how the ECI side of things is going to pan out and as far as i can find ECI cabs haven't started to be enabled again to be honest i'm not sure if they were to begin with,  have openreach started again if so they have kept that very quiet, i dunno what's going on.

here's the link to the page in the G.INP thread on the plusnet forum that it's mentioned, http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,136287.976.html

       

   

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on June 09, 2015, 07:52:15 PM
The question to ask is, which exchange?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 09, 2015, 07:54:33 PM
I think they somehow are mistaken as bets are the ECI Dslam's don't support G.inp and probably don't support vectoring
either, Re the mistaken plusnet customer
is this the plusnet response they where referring to ??http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,140216.msg1236754.html#msg1236754 (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,140216.msg1236754.html#msg1236754)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on June 09, 2015, 08:13:50 PM
Hi tommy45 yeah that's the plusnet response he is referring to, I have asked in the plusnet G.INP thread if he can post what exchange he is on maybe someone here can get info.

like you i believe he is mistaken some how either by what type of cab he is actually on or he has mistakenly been told by Plusnet that he is G.INP enabled, that said with the way openreach operate i wouldn't put it past them to do something without mentioning it so maybe he is i dunno.     

Edit... Ok he has responded and has stated that he is on the Fordingbridge 01425 exchange, not sure if that is of any help to any one. 

hmm looking on code look his area is ECI only at the moment so he is on a ECI cab, so that leaves either a plusnet mistake or he is G.INP enabled and something is going on not sure which.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 09, 2015, 08:21:50 PM
It would be interesting to know where they were and to ensure that the DLM hasn't intervened for some other reason.

Correspondence I've had from someone pretty high up in Openreach and someone who should know stated not, he did stipulate that there were some ECI test cabs, but then again we are aware of those - such as Martlesham Heath.

However, there is an implication that the situation may be reviewed when Mk2 G.INP has been rolled out to all the Huawei cabs.

They havent yet finished rolling out Mk2 G.INP - judging from MDWS they are probably somewhere around half-way.  It does not make sense for them to start enabling the ECI's until at least the Huaweis are complete. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 09, 2015, 08:34:21 PM
Just noticed the reply.  Yep Fordingham are all ECI's.

Quote
n another thread PN have informed me that my ECI cab was G-INP enabled earlier this month, resulting in the inevitable speed drop & ping increase.

So I looked back

Quote from: Matthew Wheeler
@tijara33

Your line is also on G.INP at the moment. Are the ping times still higher?

../snip/..

@tijara33

Openreach are rolling a fix for the G.INP issues although I can't commend on when it will be done as I believe it's a gradual roll-out.

Hang on a mo..   so tijara was supposedly g.inp enabled at the beginning of May on the old g.inp settings. 

So BT rolled out G.INP mk1 on an ECI cab at the beginning of May ??????????
Beginning of May the ECI's were definitely suspended...  as were Huaweis at that particular time. 
We know for a fact that Openreach stopped applying G.INP at the end of March and G.INP was NOT applied to any new lines/profiles/after DLM resets until at least the 26th of May.
 
Something definitely does not add up.    :-X
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 09, 2015, 08:41:42 PM
Quote
he has mistakenly been told by Plusnet that he is G.INP enabled,

I wonder what Plusnet are seeing to make that statement.   I know for a fact that Matthew has told several people they weren't G.INP enabled when in fact they were. :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on June 09, 2015, 08:59:34 PM
@kitz yeah my guess he has been told wrongly that G.INP is on the line, one way to be sure is for him to ask plusnet to post his line profile to see if it says re-transmission or not
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 09, 2015, 09:19:13 PM
I think they somehow are mistaken as bets are the ECI Dslam's don't support G.inp

Well this time I am hopeful the ECI cabinet G.INP rollout will begin soon after the MK2 G.INP rollout has been completed on Huawei cabinets maybe the 1st of September and this is all a guesstimate.

looking back though threads & post the issue is with the upstream on ECI modems it could be the same for the ECI cabinets just no way of getting G.INP working on the upstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 09, 2015, 09:22:08 PM
@ Terranova, you may wish to edit your post - that should be April not May.   

Suspension for all new profiles was last week in March and didnt recommence until the 26th May.  From the period beginning of April until the end of May no-one new had a new g.inp DLM profile applied.   Including those on Huawei cabs nvm ECI's... even a line that had a DLM reset would find g.inp removed.   The exceptions were those on the g.inp fix trial which irrc was sometime around the 20th of May.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 09, 2015, 09:25:11 PM
I think they somehow are mistaken as bets are the ECI Dslam's don't support G.inp

Well this time I am hopeful the ECI cabinet G.INP rollout will begin soon after the MK2 G.INP rollout has been completed on Huawei cabinets maybe the 1st of September and this is all a guesstimate.

looking back though threads & post the issue is with the upstream on ECI modems it could be the same for the ECI cabinets just no way of getting G.INP working on the upstream.

It may be slightly sooner NS.    Although the Huaweis started at the beginning of Jan, it was a very slow start and it wasnt until Feb that they seemed to notch up progression to a slightly faster pace.
I suppose we shall just have to wait see until all the Huawei's are done, what they decide to do next. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 09, 2015, 09:32:47 PM
kitz if you wondering why openreach put MK1 on the eci cabs? remember this is openreach we talking about :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: simoncraddock on June 09, 2015, 09:40:34 PM
I thought both HUAWEI and ECI both supported their own native versions of PHyR?
Why is it proving to be such a headache enabling what supposedly already existed? Is this purely a modem problem?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 09, 2015, 10:17:23 PM
I suppose we shall just have to wait see until all the Huawei's are done, what they decide to do next.

Thats the way i look at it, And what kind of freeks me out it what is said on your forum is picked by other forums members and used as a catalyst so you must be doing something right  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on June 10, 2015, 03:35:09 PM
I thought both HUAWEI and ECI both supported their own native versions of PHyR?
Why is it proving to be such a headache enabling what supposedly already existed? Is this purely a modem problem?

For a start, G.INP is not the same as either of the proprietary PHYR variants. Each DSLAM needs firmware that implements G.INP, irrespective of whether it used to support the proprietary (near-)equivalent.

Because G.INP is different from the proprietary versions, it certainly means that the firmware needs changing, but it likely also requires a change to the DSP coding ... and it could well be that the hardware is not powerful enough to support G.INP bi-directionally (reports that speeds might drop a few Mbps suggest this is true). If the modem is running right on the limits of its capabilities, careful crafting is needed in an upgrade ... and it is likely to take time to get this firmware through BT's acceptance & regression tests. And this could be true at the CPE end and at the DSLAM end.

The second problem seems to be that BT's SIN allows G.INP upstream to be optional in any modem, but they (in an entirely different branch) didn't design DLM to make good choices when G.INP upstream turned out to be unavailable.

DLM was probably designed expecting this possibility to be a rare edge condition, so the engineers didn't pay much attention to it ... and didn't spot the issue arising during trials.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on June 10, 2015, 05:56:57 PM
Just an update tijara was given his line profile and it stated interleaving not Retransmission so he was wrong told by Plusnet that he was G.INP enabled, so he like myself will still have to wait and see what is to become of us ECI cab users.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on June 10, 2015, 06:07:04 PM
. . . it stated interleaving not Retransmission so he was wrong told by Plusnet that he was G.INP enabled . . .

Glad to see that has finally been resolved.  ::)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 10, 2015, 06:59:43 PM

Because G.INP is different from the proprietary versions, it certainly means that the firmware needs changing, but it likely also requires a change to the DSP coding ... and it could well be that the hardware is not powerful enough to support G.INP bi-directionally (reports that speeds might drop a few Mbps suggest this is true). If the modem is running right on the limits of its capabilities, careful crafting is needed in an upgrade ... and it is likely to take time to get this firmware through BT's acceptance & regression tests. And this could be true at the CPE end and at the DSLAM end.

The second problem seems to be that BT's SIN allows G.INP upstream to be optional in any modem, but they (in an entirely different branch) didn't design DLM to make good choices when G.INP upstream turned out to be unavailable.

I'll second that :(

Quote
DLM was probably designed expecting this possibility to be a rare edge condition, so the engineers didn't pay much attention to it ... and didn't spot the issue arising during trials.

Someone certainly missed a trick big time not to test using the HomeHubs and ECIs :/
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 10, 2015, 07:00:42 PM
Just an update tijara was given his line profile and it stated interleaving not Retransmission so he was wrong told by Plusnet that he was G.INP enabled, so he like myself will still have to wait and see what is to become of us ECI cab users.

Thanks for the update.   Hmmm   its not good that people are given out duff info really.   This isn't a one off, Ive seen it about half a dozen times now. :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 10, 2015, 08:01:06 PM
its not good that people are given out duff info really.   This isn't a one off, Ive seen it about half a dozen times now. :(

The reason why duff info regarding OR Broadband Tech gets misinterpreted is because there is a lack of information coming out from the source so i would say most of us are just having to go on what we here and what we see that's always going to end up in confusion.
 

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 10, 2015, 10:49:32 PM
And again a snippet from Plusnet Forums

Just under 1 million (of the 2.5 million lines on Huawei cabinets) have had the updated profile so far as they can only do 50-60k lines a day.

To be clear though, the profile update only removes the automatic application of upstream interleaving, where a line does not support retransmission in the upstream. It does not disable retransmission on lines that are capable of supporting it on the upstream.


who is correct and who is wrong ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on June 10, 2015, 10:54:51 PM
Take a look at MDWS (http://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/HG612-MultUsersLivei.htm?UO=12)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 10, 2015, 11:15:53 PM
And again a snippet from Plusnet Forums

Just under 1 million (of the 2.5 million lines on Huawei cabinets) have had the updated profile so far as they can only do 50-60k lines a day.

To be clear though, the profile update only removes the automatic application of upstream interleaving, where a line does not support retransmission in the upstream. It does not disable retransmission on lines that are capable of supporting it on the upstream.


who is correct and who is wrong ?

Who said that and where?  I cant find the post to see who said that, so do you have a link please?

Theres quite a lot of lines that have had it removed from the upstream in the past few weeks -  regardless of the fact that we know their modem can support it on the upstream. 
The official statement was that they were removing automatic application of interleaving from the upstream for lines which cannot support g.inp.

What is unclear atm is if g.inp is being removed if the line can work sufficiently well without it

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 10, 2015, 11:25:26 PM
Take a look at MDWS (http://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/HG612-MultUsersLivei.htm?UO=12)

 :) Yes indeed Dray the proof is in the MDWS stats this we can see as fact and not hear say  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 10, 2015, 11:33:23 PM
Answering my own question because I couldnt see it in the g.inp thread and a google search (https://www.google.com/search?as_q=&as_epq=%22It+does+not+disable+retransmission+on+lines+that+are+capable+of+supporting+it+on+the+upstream.%22&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.plus.net%2Fforum%2F&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=&gws_rd=ssl#q=It+does+not+disable+retransmission+on+lines+that+are+capable+of+supporting+it+on+the+upstream.+site:http://community.plus.net/forum/&as_qdr=all&start=10) brought up zilch.

Ive found it now.   It was said by AndyH (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1237534.html#msg1237534)

We already knew that they were approaching the halfway mark and that the initial roll out was at about 45k per day.
As Dray said, the figures on MDWS prove that this is not the case.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 11, 2015, 12:20:12 AM
What is unclear atm is if g.inp is being removed if the line can work sufficiently well without it

It's just a pity for longer lines g.inp will be removed on the upstream as we need both g.inp DS & US, it won't hurt the shorter lines 79999/20000 when g.inp is removed on their US because i very much doubt there would be any US errored seconds over a 24 hour period.

I suppose there is not point in wallowing over this the deal is done it's out of are hands as usual.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 11, 2015, 08:11:17 AM
newt why do you need it on the US? as I remember you dont have US issues.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: les-70 on June 11, 2015, 10:21:29 AM
  Over the last year I have had odd few months with very large upstream error rates.  My CAB is in a town centre area and I think the DSLAM sometimes get quite a lot of noise interfering with my weak upstream signals reaching it.  That said a big majority of people will be happy with just downstream and much of the time I may also be happy.   My one hope is that  any upstream interleaving is applied gently and so as give some protection to errors but minimum delay.  To me a lot that was wrong with interleaving was the high levels applied.  If Openreach had aimed at just keeping errors levels below 25% of the threshold to introduce interleaving, there would have been a lot less grumbles about the DLM.  25% would I suspect have a more than sufficient margin to prevent too much switching to and fro.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 11, 2015, 12:43:17 PM
newt why do you need it on the US? as I remember you dont have US issues.

The UStream over the last year or so has become noisier the errored seconds used to be around 10 over a 24H period now it's into the mid seventies and when the phone rings i see very noticable spikes of US ES's.

And those bloody international incoming calls "have you a problem with your computer" no i don't as all i have is a tablet and they end the call abruptly i get 12 calls a day and only 1 or 2 are legitimate and now i am scared to answer the phone just look at the ID on screen.

Code: [Select]
Per second Per minute Per hour  Per day

CRC Up 0 0.07 4.18 100
Down 0 0.24 14.3 344

FEC Up 0 0.08 4.78 115
Down 8.19 492 29499 707966

HEC Up 0 0 0 0
Down 0.04 2.60 156 3747

ES Up 0 0.07 4.18 100
Down 0 0.10 6.27 150

SES Up 0 0 0 0
Down 0 0 0 0
   
Title: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: mikelj on June 12, 2015, 10:03:30 AM
Well, it would appear you can add me to the list of people who've had G.INP removed from US despite my modem/router supporting it (Billion 8800NL). Prior to last night's re-sync, my US was 18+mbps with a SNMR around 3dB with only a couple of US ES a week, now US synced 5mbps less. My US Interleaver Depth has changed from 4 to 1 and INP from 45 to 0.

On top of that, my DS has been banded at 60mbs with a SNRM 9dB for 3+ months despite averaging around 1ES a day with an attainable rate of around 70mbps being reported by my Billion. It gets even worse, as my BT DS profile is around 92% of my sync speed, not 97% (again, has been for months).

Honestly, if there was a credible alternative to BT in my area ...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 12, 2015, 10:28:53 AM
what was your US prior to g.inp in first place, it should be compared to that not the g.inp rate.
Title: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: mikelj on June 12, 2015, 11:11:29 AM
what was your US prior to g.inp in first place, it should be compared to that not the g.inp rate.

I think it's probably around the same.

I'm wondering whether I should try to get my DS sorted i.e. a DLM reset (my banded profile was applied following G.INP mk1 and my Draytek modem/HH5A inability to support US), or wait so as to not risk losing G.INP on my DS too.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 12, 2015, 11:23:37 AM
I respect this is annoying, as once you have something you dont want to lose it, it will be nagging you that you know your line can do more if openreach activate g.inp.

It does seem openreach got themselves into a mess with g.inp and they had to make a choice between upsetting LOTS of users with eci devices or a few that benefited from g.inp. According to andyh on plusnet forums they have told isp's they have rolled out profiles to keep everyone happy but as we are seeing with the feedback here that is not the case, the reality is they seemed to have changed the default US profile to what it used to be prior to g.inp. I did ask him to tell openreach (as he claims to have high level access) that what they claimed isnt working, but then he came back saying to follow the official route which is to report via the isp (which we all know is ineffective).

I did wonder how the dslam would be intelligent enough to determine compatibility as it seemed odd to me, and indeed what I am seeing now makes more sense.

The proper fix is to allow manual overides, so then the user or isp can manually enable g.inp for those it helps, but this obsession with 100% DLM means they wont do that.

Even more frustrating is the isp's and openreach appear to be deliberately witholding a lot of information from the customers.

I would email joe garner telling him the situation, he will probably give you contact with one of his managers.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 12, 2015, 12:16:19 PM
Hang fire.   Ive seen Andy's post this morning in respect of my post last night.   I need to make a long post and why Andy is wrong.  I have to go out & not back till later this eve.... Im already late from reading his posts.. and I dont have time to give a reply that it needs.

There may be some hope for you mikelj, but Im aware Im skim reading so need to digest the facts properly and try and fit info together with info that I have from Openreach too.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on June 12, 2015, 02:51:06 PM
According to andyh on plusnet forums . . .

I am rather surprised that you believe anything from that "source".  ::)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 12, 2015, 03:55:18 PM
hence the according to.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on June 12, 2015, 04:05:02 PM
hence the according to.

  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 12, 2015, 11:00:56 PM
Okay I promised I'd respond, but Im tired & aching and in need of a shower and food and my bed..  so it will be briefer than originally intended.  Perhaps a good job I didnt have time to reply earlier today otherwise I probably would have done a lot more ranting too.  :-X
---

link (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1237534.html#msg1237534)
Quote from: AndyH
To be clear though, the profile update only removes the automatic application of upstream interleaving, where a line does not support retransmission in the upstream. It does not disable retransmission on lines that are capable of supporting it on the upstream.

This is FALSE.


I am sick and tired of certain people dissing members of this community for daring to suggest something isn't working as it should.  Let me state here and now that nothing that BlackSheep has ever said has EVER proved to be false and Im well sick to the back teeth how certain people have disregarded this community or its members though information that has either been mis-quoted elsewhere or someone has an agenda because information coming from here is not how they interpret information.  Without information coming from here and using tools by our community and some of us saying this is wrong... then you'd have the likes of Andy still quoting "It doesnt cause any degradation of the line", "How is it affecting your performance?" [to someone syncing 10Mb less and interleaving in the 40ms] and the best one yet "You keep going on about the modems being incompatible - they are compatible and have been tested for quite some time."

Openreach are partially to blame for this.  Information has been sparse and often confusing and sometimes what they say doesn't make total sense.  Some of you are aware I do have some information direct from Openreach but I have not released such information because IMHO it only muddies the water further until I get proper clarification.  Note to all the nay-sayers - this doesnt come from BS, but someone very high up in Openreach who should know what is going on.  However, things are now slowly beginning to fit together and if you take what users are seeing, the information that I do have, plus the list of new profiles.

It would appear that Openreach has rejigged the available profiles.  The full list isnt there, but we can see things like what appear to be  what could be used in the following circumstances [& obviously depending on line conditions]

- Section 1. The open profile,
- Section 2. A sample profile for a line whose equipment doesnt support g.inp and an example of what previously happened by default if the modem was g.inp incompatible
- Section 3. This is interesting - Note how ReTX is available for upstream only - I want to see the full list of profiles before commenting further.
- Section 4.  Huawei cabs - ReTX applied by default for downstream with the new available upstream profiles. Note how upstream reTX is still available.  Note the absense of any interleaving. Note Error Protection off (probably not the same as Error Correction)

I suspect there will be more available profiles and why I wont comment further until Im sure, but it does appear to back up what we have suspected since the 25th of May, that interleaving has been removed from the upstream, but that DLM can also turn off g.inp if it thinks it doesnt need it... but the option is still there if the line does.

This is why I told mikelj to hold fire, because DLM may adjust later to add it.  I have seen some lines whereby they do adjust over a few days and although Ive yet to actually see one get g.inp turned back on, it looks like the possibility is still there, so I suggest leaving for a while to see what happens.   Those lines where it was switched off completely and have stayed that way appear to be below the MTBE threshold so DLM may be happy to keep it like that and satisfied that there are insufficient errors to apply further DLM intervention.  It will be interesting to watch what happens with mikeljs line.


---------
PS

Meant to add - G.INP isnt always a good thing and doesn't necessarily work well on all lines - could ramble on more but will let ASSIA (http://www.assia-inc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/DSL_Expresse_Retransmission.pdf) do the talking.
Quote
With retransmission, a line experiencing frequent noise bursts can suffer significant throughput degradation.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 12, 2015, 11:30:38 PM
Those profiles are for  the 40/10 & 40/2 variants are the 80/20 the same or not ? what VDSL products are 10M and 1.3M profiles for ?
Shouldn't the profiles read the same or similar to this 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 12, 2015, 11:40:33 PM
Should be, but why I want to see the full list.  Those are basically banded to 10Mb...  so for a line capable of syncing at 80/20 it will show something like
Quote
0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

The list looks like its showing the stages of DLM progression it can go through ie
Error Protection off > Retransmission Low > Retransmission High

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on June 12, 2015, 11:45:40 PM
link (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1237534.html#msg1237534)

What a mess. What a muddle. What a load of speculation. What a collection of wishful thinking.  >:(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 12, 2015, 11:57:01 PM
btw I think 'Error Protection OFF" may be a tad misleading.

I think by that they mean forms of Error Protection which could encompass INP & G.INP.  It may be separate to Forward Error Correction.

Need someone who has had g.inp Mk2 rolled out and who can give me their profile and full linestats please to confirm.  Anyone available to provide this info for me please?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 13, 2015, 12:00:11 AM
Should be, but why I want to see the full list.  Those are basically banded to 10Mb...  so for a line capable of syncing at 80/20 it will show something like
Quote
0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

The list looks like its showing the stages of DLM progression it can go through ie
Error Protection off > Retransmission Low > Retransmission High
and that is the same profile for my line but error correction is most certainly ON, So their botch named fix doesn't work as intended, assuming they intended it to have error correction off  that is, I am somewhat sceptical due to the secrecy by BT Do they think  that all EU's are fools and won't know any better ? Kitz you already have had my stats following the botch rolled out on my circuit, re the thread i started  about the loss of nearley 2mbps from the upstream as a direct result of G.inp and or the Fix botch rollout
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 13, 2015, 12:04:59 AM
Quote
assuming they intended it to have error correction off  that is

Your post possibly crossed with my last one.  Note the difference between Error Protection and Error Correction

Also one of the reasons why Ive been harping on recently about the need to separately clarify Interleaving and Error Correction separately.  Error Correction is FEC which we know they apply silently by default regardless if interleaving is applied or not.  INP and G.INP are forms of Error Protection that can modify the amount of Error Correction (& Interleave if need be). 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 13, 2015, 12:09:39 AM
Quote
assuming they intended it to have error correction off  that is

You post possibly crossed with my last one.  Note the difference between Error Protection and Error Correction

Also one of the reasons why Ive been harping on recently about the need to separately clarify Interleaving and Error Correction separately.  Error Correction is FEC which we know they apply silently by default regardless if interleaving is applied or not.  INP and G.INP are forms of Error Protection that can modify the amount of Error Correction (& Interleave if need be).
So a less confusing and more open & honest way of wording the profile i'm on would be upstream error correction ON or Low or High ? instead of saying to obvious error protection is OFF just a thought , although i think the fast path profile did refer to fec being on, in that it said about error correction being on ,Openreach, what a mess and tangled web they keep on weaving God help us all if they ever decide to roll out vectoring , G fast would mean new hardware to EU's , although vectoring  would be pushing the current hardware to it's limits as it can only support 100mbps in theory
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 13, 2015, 12:20:22 AM
Quote
but error correction is most certainly ON

You edited you post while I made mine and I didn't see that till just now.   I strongly suspected it would be and that Error Correction is most certainly different from Error Protection. 

It dawned on me when I was closely reading through the Openreach info and I noted the term 'Error Protection' was being used by him when he meant ReTransmission/G.INP.  Like I said things are beginning to clear... its like putting together a large jigsaw  ???

I therefore think we can safely assume that in this case "Error Protection OFF" means G.INP is off.  BUT Error Correction (FEC) will be enabled by default as per it was previously on the upstream. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 13, 2015, 01:09:47 AM
Except that the level of FEC is higher than it was /is when in fast path mode, So should really display that ,perhaps their omittion of this is an indication of them trying to wriggle off the hook when complaints start rolling in again when those who would normally sync at or under the max rate , but we know that BT don't give a stuff about upstream sync or throughput
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 13, 2015, 11:45:35 AM
kitz yeah I have been telling andyh its false on the forums, but noone is backing me up overthere, so I just look like a raving lunatic :)

When I posted about him here, sorry if I didnt make it clear, but I did not post it as a fact, rather just as his (and openreach's claim?).  I defenitly disagree with what he said, and his affiliation with the BT group seems a bit more clear now as when I suggested to him to use his high level access to tell them they wrong he did a blunt corporate reply to tell people to report via the usual channels which we all know is useless.

I cant say everything I know regarding ofcom sadly but what I can say is ofcom are not happy currently about whats happening with the retail side of the market, they not happy about not a single isp passing on the wholesale changes of 1 month min terms for FTTC (hence the new changes regarding poor performance) and they also not happy with the current DLM situation where not a single isp even aaisp is passing on information.  Instead customers are spending their own money to buy new compatible modems, which believe me ofcom has not taken lightly.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: mikelj on June 13, 2015, 11:48:23 AM
Need someone who has had g.inp Mk2 rolled out and who can give me their profile and full linestats please to confirm.  Anyone available to provide this info for me please?

Does this help?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 13, 2015, 11:54:36 AM
Cheers mikelj.

Yep it was the info provided in your line stats I was after which shows Error Correction in use thankyou, and also the DLM line profile which looks something like

Quote
0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

However, Tommy provided that info last night and I was able to see his stats from router from the other thread.

I needed to just double check that Error correction is being used with G.INP mk2 separately from Error Protection.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 13, 2015, 11:56:08 AM
Also kitz it may help to release the information you have to see if the community can put the pieces together, the withholding of information by all the parties involved is what's caused this mess.

Here is a quote from ofcom

Quote
Because of this we have realised our past approach has been ineffective in recent months and we will now take a new approach in our aim to increase competition and transparency to consumers, This includes directly tackling the lack of inclusion of line rental on broadband prices, and the lack of information to consumers in regards to compatible equipment and line profiling.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 13, 2015, 11:59:38 AM
Actually, whilst typing I should also mention that

Quote
0.128M-20MUpstream, Error Protection Off

can't necessarily be taken to mean that G.INP is or isnt enabled.  I think this is where the PN reps may have been getting confused about whether G.INP was on or not.. because exactly the same profile can also be used for ECI cabs.   On non-G.INP cabs (ECI's):  Error Protection Off means INP = OFF.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 13, 2015, 12:45:16 PM
its funny isnt it that the apparent reason for not releasing the information is we all get confused yet the isp staff themselves get confused as they ill trained.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 13, 2015, 01:25:24 PM
Kerching. :idea:

Oh My Gawd - I get what they have done.  The fix is so simple, its elegant and its what they should have done in the first place!   The big mistake they made was not testing with ECI's & HH5A's on the Huawei cabs which were set to auto-apply re-tx by default.  If they tested properly they would immediately have spotted it.

Quote
release the information you have to see if the community can put the pieces together

It will take me ages to type it all out..  but yes I will do something.  I think a post/page to explain, with all the info together would be best for easy reference as this thread itself has now got long winded.  I have a lot of confidence that this should also work with the ECI cabs too.   The crux is using the profile Error Protection OFF.. as error protection can be INP or G.INP - note above how I said default for existing (pre g.inp) upstream is the same? 

Thats what theyve done - simply implemented a hybrid profile system for the retx which by default uses Error Protection (INP or G.INP depending on which DSLAM type)   Theres a lot more to it than that, but I will explain more when I get time but think of it this way in the simplist form that both G.INP and INP adjust the same 2 parameters, just one does it on the fly, the other is permanent. I'd also if possible like to see if I get a reply to my further questions -  I got an email last week to say he'd been on holiday & Ive not been forgotten and he will respond.   I will chase that again, because now some of the things I asked we are aware of anyhow, but it would be nice if we can get some more info.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 13, 2015, 01:50:12 PM
kitz yeah I have been telling andyh its false on the forums, but noone is backing me up overthere, so I just look like a raving lunatic :)

When I posted about him here, sorry if I didnt make it clear, but I did not post it as a fact, rather just as his (and openreach's claim?).  I defenitly disagree with what he said, and his affiliation with the BT group seems a bit more clear now as when I suggested to him to use his high level access to tell them they wrong he did a blunt corporate reply to tell people to report via the usual channels which we all know is useless.

I cant say everything I know regarding ofcom sadly but what I can say is ofcom are not happy currently about whats happening with the retail side of the market, they not happy about not a single isp passing on the wholesale changes of 1 month min terms for FTTC (hence the new changes regarding poor performance) and they also not happy with the current DLM situation where not a single isp even aaisp is passing on information.  Instead customers are spending their own money to buy new compatible modems, which believe me ofcom has not taken lightly.

Ofcom unfortunately are all bark,how often have they fined an ISP for breeching the MAC code rules?

If ofcom where that interested in us the EU's  then it would of made ISP's pass on the 1mths min term for FTTC migrations and the lower migration activation fee's  but it didn't, So pointless to the EU  as it has only benefited the ISP's
Also why hasn't it stepped in and stopped the likes of BT retail jacking up line rental when the wholesale costs have decreased ? IMO ofcom are useless, and the SP's and ISP's know it The only way ISP's andSP's will pass on the savings to EU's is if ofcom legislate and make it mandatory that savings are passed on , but imo that is very unlikely
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 13, 2015, 02:45:08 PM
Ofcom have now admitted they were taking the wrong approach tommy, before (and to be fair it did work early on to a degree) they were regulating only wholesale with the assumption retail would take care of itself, however clearly thats all gone astray now.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 13, 2015, 02:58:56 PM
Ofcom have now admitted they were taking the wrong approach tommy, before (and to be fair it did work early on to a degree) they were regulating only wholesale with the assumption retail would take care of itself, however clearly that's all gone astray now.
Well it isn't surprising IMO that the ISP's SP's haven't been passing on these savings, in particular the biggest providers, i find it hard to except that ofcom really believed that isp's would  pass on the savings/changes made at the wholesale level, i didn't think they where so naive
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 13, 2015, 04:35:20 PM
looks like the mods at plusnet got sick of warning me, instead they just deleted my post silently.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1238310/topicseen.html#new

Will keep an eye out to see if kitz post stays intact.

My post was similar to deathtrap's I just said we know he doesnt care and kitz was posting the correct facts.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 13, 2015, 05:12:51 PM
looks like the mods at plusnet got sick of warning me, instead they just deleted my post silently.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1238310/topicseen.html#new

Will keep an eye out to see if kitz post stays intact.

My post was similar to deathtrap's I just said we know he doesnt care and kitz was posting the correct facts.
noticed that it had mysteriously disappeared So much for freedom of speech or opinions, their silly rules about quotes  are a pain, i even had one of my posts edited by their mods and had not posted the wholes quote, i don't think they all can read properly they are certainly bias towards some people
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lf2k on June 13, 2015, 05:22:43 PM
OK, so I'll be honest I've just reading the various things here and on PN regarding this - an "interesting" exchange of information/ideas to say the least... ;)

So that I understand what's going on...

There are a variety of different profile options:
Error Protection Off > Retransmission Low > Retransmission High > Interleaving Low > Interleaving High

These are supposedly rolled out to all Huawei cabinets, but not all Huawei cabs are G.INP enabled - in this situation Error Protection Off is the equivalent of FastPath.  When retransmission is enabled on the cabinet, interleaving would be applied sparingly [not at all?].

Error Correction (FEC/HEC etc) is about redundant information being encoded (in the same way that FEC works on DVB-S/DVB-T - there's no retransmission involved/required since this can be reconstructed from the redundant data).  The clue here is that the F stands for "Forward".

Error Protection basically means G.INP.

G.INP potentially reduces the need for as much data to be redundant (again, as per symbol rates in DVB-T/DVB-S) by effectively increasing the symbol rate but allowing for retransmission when needed.  Where people have moved from interleaving to G.INP they've "reclaimed" bandwidth that was previously used for Error Correction.

Looking at MDWS (http://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/HG612-MultUsersLivei.htm?UO=12), we see people who have G.INP, people who are interleaved and people on Fastpath.

The important numbers involved are the amount of "INP" on each line.  If this is combined with "Delay" you're on an interleaved line, otherwise you're G.INP'd (INP == 0 = fastpath).

No one seems to know what constitutes Retransmission Low vs Retransmission High - presumably this is related to the Interleaving Depth?  No-one on MDWS seems to have an interleave depth of more than 16 (when G.INP is enabled).

Now most of the above was about Downstream - upstream seems to be a case of Fast Path vs Interleaving, with G.INP being on lines which have not resynced/retrained since the profiles have updated...

ECI cabinets seems to be (still) FastPath vs Interleave - there's no G.INP option.  Likewise with some Huawei cabinets (like mine!).  There doesn't seem to be an ETA, nor obvious pattern on which cabinets are being "upgraded", but there is an assumption that ECI will happen after Huawei.

Am I thinking along the right lines, or have I missed/misunderstood something?



Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 13, 2015, 06:00:28 PM
There doesn't seem to be an ETA, nor obvious pattern on which cabinets are being "upgraded", but there is an assumption that ECI will happen after Huawei.

You can say that again!

On MDWS is not so easy to interpret users G.INP status which have a Huawei Cab unless you have kept a close watch on them over many months.

Take me for example MK1 G.INP was enabled on both my US & DS for less than two months then changed ISP provider while the rollout was halted and G.INP was removed from my line, had I known the outcome i definitely would'nt have moved to another ISP so soon.

And yes Kitizens i'm still smarting as Downstream interleaving depth of 592 sucks as the internet feels suggish without G.INP
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 13, 2015, 06:02:16 PM
There does seem to be a difference in the amount of FEC applied to circuits that have G.inp enabled  on the downstream, when compared to those who are on the wide open  fast path profile  this is most likely the underlying reason for the loss of 1-2mbps from the upstream max/Sync rate that some of those who have G.inp on DS only since (BT's botched fix) roll out started,
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on June 13, 2015, 06:09:00 PM
looks like the mods at plusnet got sick of warning me, instead they just deleted my post silently.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1238310/topicseen.html#new

Will keep an eye out to see if kitz post stays intact.

My post was similar to deathtrap's I just said we know he doesnt care and kitz was posting the correct facts.

hmm i wonder how long my post there will last  ;D   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on June 13, 2015, 06:16:33 PM
It's great to see that Kitz may have figured out what the hell is going on with the G.INP mkII etc, It gives us ECI cab users some hope that it may not be a total crap storm when openreach finally get around to the ECI rollout, well one can hope 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 13, 2015, 07:22:38 PM
hmm i wonder how long my post there will last  ;D

It's still there @ 19:16 it's a good read and Kitz's post has educated me even more into workings of the MK2 G.INP and that's the main goal on any forums  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 13, 2015, 07:46:30 PM
newt are you back on g.inp yet or still waiting?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 13, 2015, 08:35:07 PM
newt are you back on g.inp yet or still waiting?

 :no: still waiting it took my line 2 months and 19 days to get the MK1 G.INP rollout so i expect to get the MK2 in August, So if you add up both rollouts i have had to wait close to half a year  :o
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: underzone on June 13, 2015, 09:12:11 PM
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1238310/topicseen.html#new

"what Kitz says or her forums says it all really". Kitz is a chick?

I think I'm in love!

And also with Kate Russell (BBC Click)

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkaterussell.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F3%2F2%2F2%2F1322404%2F5502189.jpg&hash=e0979157ff761a940b2d558a04c5e1ba)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on June 13, 2015, 09:45:32 PM
newt are you back on g.inp yet or still waiting?

 :no: still waiting it took my line 2 months and 19 days to get the MK1 G.INP rollout so i expect to get the MK2 in August, So if you add up both rollouts i have had to wait close to half a year  :o

Us ECI Cab users are still waiting.. for something .. anything   :'(  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Tazz on June 13, 2015, 09:48:19 PM
Been lurking in this thread for a bit and reading the plusnet thread too... Just want to say Kitz thank you for the forum and for all of the information including making it easy for us to all understand  ;D it really does annoy me when people with inside info just use it to tease others with it calling them wrong and acting big headed. Kitz and the members of this forum are not like that  :D

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1238310/topicseen.html#new

"what Kitz says or her forums says it all really". Kitz is a chick?

I think I'm in love!

And also with Kate Russell (BBC Click)

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkaterussell.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F3%2F2%2F2%2F1322404%2F5502189.jpg&hash=e0979157ff761a940b2d558a04c5e1ba)

I also just learned this  :P :P
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 13, 2015, 11:23:54 PM
Umm...  thanks guys.  Lol - I guess you missed the Matrix reference under my AV ;)  <--------------

Sorry to disappoint, but the resemblance between me and Kate Russell ends at the long blonde hair.  I'm afraid Im more of a mother hen than a chick these days ;)

On a more serious note, I cant take all the credit.  We have a damn good team here and we work together.  It wouldnt be what it is without the likes of the regs who help contribute and those who beaver away behind the scenes to bring you f/w, HG612 modem stats, DSLstats etc and the tons of other informative information.  I won't name names, because there are too many and I dont want to upset anyone by forgetting to include them.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 13, 2015, 11:28:05 PM
Us ECI Cab users are still waiting.. for something .. anything   :'(  :)

T667 we are all Brothers In Arms we fight for the same thing FTTC Equality be you on a Huawei or ECI cab we should all be treated the same  ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 13, 2015, 11:38:25 PM
@ chrys, Ive not been back to read whats been said (or deleted), but I bet you any money there is no admittance that he was wrong.

I know what he will have done and thats seen ReTX in the profiles and jumped to conclusions and formed his own opinion.   Although Im happier with the fix and it gives hope to ECI cabs, Im still not sure what the future re the ECI modems are.  Still need to see proper stats for those and Ive not seen anyone reporting any improvements for those yet.  The removal of Interleaving should ease things a tad, but if they have also upped the default Error correction like some say, then the lack of attainable sync could be an issue for some.  I'm waiting to see proper stats though on those - which isnt going to be easy. :(

Btw - NewtronStar is kindly offering up his HomeHub5A for free in the name of research if there is anyone on a g.inp'd cab who wishes to play.  The only reason he's getting rid is because it doesnt work with his new ISP (EU needs to be with BT or PN) - linky (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15580.0.html)   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 13, 2015, 11:49:57 PM
I think I'm in love!

UZ can tell you this i don't like the BBC CLICK new theme tune what was wrong with the old one it reminded me of BBC Micro live https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLfYT6yXgEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLfYT6yXgEc)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on June 14, 2015, 01:38:15 AM
Btw - NewtronStar is kindly offering up his HomeHub5A for free in the name of research if there is anyone on a g.inp'd cab who wishes to play.  The only reason he's getting rid is because it doesnt work with his new ISP (EU needs to be with BT or PN) - linky (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15580.0.html)

Or TalkTalk, as authentication is done purely by the CLI . . .  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 14, 2015, 11:48:07 AM
@ chrys, Ive not been back to read whats been said (or deleted), but I bet you any money there is no admittance that he was wrong.

I know what he will have done and thats seen ReTX in the profiles and jumped to conclusions and formed his own opinion.   Although Im happier with the fix and it gives hope to ECI cabs, Im still not sure what the future re the ECI modems are.  Still need to see proper stats for those and Ive not seen anyone reporting any improvements for those yet.  The removal of Interleaving should ease things a tad, but if they have also upped the default Error correction like some say, then the lack of attainable sync could be an issue for some.  I'm waiting to see proper stats though on those - which isnt going to be easy. :(

Btw - NewtronStar is kindly offering up his HomeHub5A for free in the name of research if there is anyone on a g.inp'd cab who wishes to play.  The only reason he's getting rid is because it doesnt work with his new ISP (EU needs to be with BT or PN) - linky (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15580.0.html)   

he basically said in his reply to you he doesnt care if he is wrong and as such giving people wrong information, all he cares about is transmitting openreach information as he understands it.

I then replied to him saying we know you dont care and thats why kitz has had to correct you in the above post, I said something in relation to him been a openreach puppet or similar and my post got deleted for been a personal attack.  He does seem to be getting special attention from the mods, I have had far worse things said to me and I dont go running to mods, and neither have mods deleted posts on my behalf.

and yeah thats nice of you newt, especially as you could have sold it to fund your 8800nl.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on June 14, 2015, 01:22:49 PM
Does anyone know if BT's doing something with the ECI cabs?

Reason I ask is my FB 7490 resynced this morning for no apparent reason (no CRC or ES/SES spikes to cause a loss of sync that I can see). Somewhere between 4am to 5am I lost sync for a minute or so. No changes to the usual connection parameters such as max sync rates, INP, delay, SRA, G.INP - they're all the same as before. I can't imagine it to be a glitch in the connection.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 14, 2015, 02:04:19 PM
The most I know is that situation is to be reviewed after roll-out of Huawei's complete.  But thats not to say they can't/wont change their plans. 
AFAIK nothing on any of the ECIs cab yet.  However, because of the limitation of how many lines they can rollout per night, then I doubt they'd do ECI's until the Huaweis are complete.


As the likes of the HH5A users on BTforum seem happier now latency has been removed, they may even do a straight roll on to ECI cabs when Huawei's are complete as per the original plans?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 14, 2015, 02:12:14 PM
Is that JDSU issue resolved for the ECI's?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 14, 2015, 02:52:12 PM
The JDSU fix should be relatively easy by swapping out the Infineon SIM to a Huawei one.   The JDSU's are modular, so once ordered and distributed should be too hard.  I should imagine the most difficult part would be BT getting their hands on 'x' number of SIMs at once.   BS would probably be best to answer that one.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on June 14, 2015, 08:12:34 PM
except this is the illustrious BT you are talking about here,they have experts in ineptness
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 14, 2015, 10:11:07 PM
FWIW, I have attached a 96 day ongoing montage for one user who initially had G.INP activated around 5th March (i.e. one of the earlier users to have it activated).


The earliest I am aware of had it activated 7th February.

Mine was activated 23rd March.



He still appears to be on the 'Mk 1' G.INP profile (G.INP active for both DS & US).

I have also attached a copy of his raw stats (xlogfile.txt) for reference.


His connection seems to be actively using/needing the benefits of G.INP's upstream ReTX, so I wonder if it is only those connections that are deemed to NOT need it that are now having it removed from their upstream ???

FWIW, mine is still active for US & DS.


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 14, 2015, 10:39:38 PM
Quote
The earliest I am aware of had it activated 7th February.

Yes they did appear to start the rollout quite slowly and then ramp up the numbers they were doing in Feb/Mar, which is one of the reasons why its possible that the MkII rollout may not take as long.

Quote
He still appears to be on the 'Mk 1' G.INP profile (G.INP active for both DS & US).

From what I can see I'd tend to agree with you, in that nothing seems to have changed.

Quote
His connection seems to be actively using/needing the benefits of G.INP's upstream ReTX, so I wonder if it is only those connections that are deemed to NOT need it that are now having it removed from their upstream

It appears that in MkII G.INP DLM,  the option is still there for upstream ReTX - as long as the modem is compatible and the default is Error Protection (INP/GINP) OFF.

It would seem logical to me that as the new G.INP system detects that a line need further DLM intervention, it would then apply G.INP.  I'm assuming the trigger would be the usual 300 MTBE in exactly the same way in which the old system would apply INP to the upstream.

Please note the last paragraph is my assumption, but IMHO the probability is the most likely based on what info we do have so far.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 14, 2015, 11:16:01 PM
FWIW, I have attached a 96 day ongoing montage for one user who initially had G.INP activated around 5th March (i.e. one of the earlier users to have it activated).

BE1 the 5th of March on the MK1 is still quite a long way for that user to get the MK2, the middle of July would be around about right as i can't see why the MK2 rollout would be faster than the MK1 as nothing really i guess has changed on the central OR server.

I am not convinced this user has the MK2 G.INP  :no:
please remember we are only on day 19 of the MK2 rollout and counting
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on June 16, 2015, 07:46:13 AM
At 03:10 this morning my connection re-synced, and it now has G.INP on the downstream only. Upstream interleave depth is now 1, upstream INP is 0, and the upstream SNRM increased by 2 dB for the same connection speed. I'm now seeing small numbers of upstream ES (1 to 5 per hour so far).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on June 16, 2015, 08:07:35 AM
Co-incidentally, mine also resynced this morning, at 00.49. I still have G.INP on the upstream and my interleave has reduced. My sync speed is now max - 80000/20000.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on June 16, 2015, 09:16:08 AM
Has anyone got any decent increase in db margin and therefore connection speed by ginp being enabled? I am on fastpath 57/20 affected by crosstalk.  Can I expect a speed bump if they decide to rollout to eci cabs?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on June 16, 2015, 09:20:17 AM
Yes, my sync shot back up to max as soon as G.INP was active on my line. I put this down to a reduction in interleaving and error correction symbols. But as you're on an ECI cab, don't hold your breath.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Gareth_R on June 16, 2015, 09:42:04 AM
My fibre broadband went live on 21st April (second user on a newly enabled Huawei cab, ECI modem)
My line has consistently synced at 78meg with consistent daily speed tests of 74 down 18 up 14ms ping.
At 6:15 this morning the PPOE connection reset and the line re-synced at 72.2. The speed test is now 68 down 18 up and 14 ms ping.
Do you think this could be due to Mk2 G.INP being enabled on the cab overnight ?
Thanks.
Gareth_R
Edit - I've just had a response from Plus Net =
I can't see any obvious issues with your line, the sync has dropped to 74.7 but there's no obvious fault.

Downstream Speed 74.7 Mbps
Upstream Speed 20.0 Mbps

Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Error Protection Off - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 10:33:56 AM
At 03:10 this morning my connection re-synced, and it now has G.INP on the downstream only. Upstream interleave depth is now 1, upstream INP is 0, and the upstream SNRM increased by 2 dB for the same connection speed. I'm now seeing small numbers of upstream ES (1 to 5 per hour so far).

Thanks for the update.  So you seem to have gained some max attainable with it switched off, but a small amount of errors.   If they keep at that level I dont think DLM will be interested.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 10:38:54 AM
Has anyone got any decent increase in db margin and therefore connection speed by ginp being enabled? I am on fastpath 57/20 affected by crosstalk.  Can I expect a speed bump if they decide to rollout to eci cabs?

As Dray basically said, the amount of any speed benefit will depend on your existing line conditions.  So if your line is currently interleaved and has INP then you are likely to see some benefit with G.INP.   However, if you're not interleaved and dont currently have INP applied, then G.INP shouldn't make much difference.   It will be interesting to see what happens on the upstream for the ECI cabs.  I suspect that they will do exactly as they are now with the Huawei's though and the default profile will be Error Protection OFF.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 16, 2015, 10:49:03 AM
I think was work this morning near me.

Just after midnight I lost PPP, I thought was a plusnet or BTw issue, then not long after that I lost sync.  Also not long after that PPP was still dropping, so at that point I got annoyed, turned everything off and went to bed.  This morning is back on now but no g.inp.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 10:52:27 AM
Downstream Speed 74.7 Mbps
Upstream Speed 20.0 Mbps

Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Error Protection Off - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

That indicates that G.INP hasnt been rolled out to your line yet.   In which case the most likely cause of a speed drop in the region of 5Mb is crosstalk from a new line.   Without seeing full stats difficult to say, but due to the fact you are still on the base default profile then its not anything DLM related.  If it was a new crosstalker on the cab, then this would have taken your SNRm to a low level, which in turn eventually will cause a resync.   Bit weird though for it to happen at 6:15..  but I cant see anything in your profile which has changed to cause a resync.

Quote
Do you think this could be due to Mk2 G.INP being enabled on the cab overnight ?

I would expect that all the Huawei cabs would be updated with G.INP available profiles as they were done before the lines were updated....  afaik they only suspended the rollout on a line basis - ie stage two.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 11:06:49 AM
I think was work this morning near me.

Just after midnight I lost PPP, I thought was a plusnet or BTw issue, then not long after that I lost sync.  Also not long after that PPP was still dropping, so at that point I got annoyed, turned everything off and went to bed.  This morning is back on now but no g.inp.

Hmmmm   interesting. 

Now you come to mention it, I had some weirdness a couple of nights ago.  From what I can gather something happened at about 3.30 am, but unfortunately at about the same time HG612 modem stats errored with a duplicate instance running.    By about 4:30 DSLstats had generated a pile of errors similar to "cant run because detected instance of HG612modem stats running".   Then sometime later that same morning (cant recall exact time but a few hours or so) the errors in DSLstats changed to "Cant Log in to Modem" and at which point I couldnt access my router GUI or telnet so had to reboot. 
 
Unfortunately though when HG612stats locks up with the double instance, this then causes DSLstats to also not record.. so I dont have a clue what was happening at around 3:30 and Ive no stats from either. :( 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 16, 2015, 11:15:18 AM
Ok I just made a graph in modem stats for last 24h (thanks to work in other thread BE, is really fast now).

It reports a massive spike in crc it seems around the time I lost sync, 5k crc errors, but only 10ES, so was an errored second with tons of CRC.

That could still be caused by someone at the dslam yanking out the able tho :)

Just thought I would report it.

I dont think it will affect my DLM with such low ES.

Also to report I got a very small increase in attenuation, since I resynced this morning. 
The SES graph shows all 10 ES were SES.
Also attaching my power graph, that one just looks weird.
Will attach US atten graph also, check the U0 attenuation.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 11:26:10 AM
@NS

It's just struck me that when youre basing your projected MkII updates, you are basing it from the beginning of Jan.   What hasnt dawned on me until this morning with your projection is that for the month of Jan, they were upgrading the cabs only and they didnt start doing any DLM line changes until Feb - Im as bad because I also should have twigged this and said earlier.  So in reality it took them 2 months to do all the line upgrades.

The upgrades during the first month would be a firmware upgrade to the cabs to make them G.INP ready and this is what caused the 10 mins outage.
Then once the cabs were g.inp ready they then started rolling out the DLM changes to the line.

Mk 2 is just DLM changes, and no work needed on the cabs.


.......................

......... which leads on to Chrys....   I wonder if they have started prepping the ECI's?    We need confirmation from more ECI cabbers first.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 16, 2015, 11:26:47 AM
reread kitz I edited :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 11:33:52 AM
Ok I just made a graph in modem stats for last 24h (thanks to work in other thread BE, is really fast now).
It reports a massive spike in crc it seems around the time I lost sync, 5k crc errors, but only 10ES, so was an errored second with tons of CRC.

That could still be caused by someone at the dslam yanking out the able tho :)
Just thought I would report it.

You posted as I was posting, so just seen this. 
The G.INP cab upgrades are software and not physical.   ie a firmware upgrade.

No harm in reporting it.   Its not beyond the realms of possibility now that Openreach deem MkII successful, for them to start and pick up from where they left off at the beginning of April.   We knew it was going to be reviewed anyhow when the Huawei fixes were completed.... so if they have deemed the fix successful, then nothing stopping them from prepping the ECI's now.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 11:36:46 AM
reread kitz I edited :)

Hang on... let me check.  I too have noticed some changes recently..   need to check my stats too...  but from what I recall my downstream SNRm has increased and my upstream SNRm taken a dive.    Let me go check, I never thought to look at the attenuation and just assumed crosstalk.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on June 16, 2015, 11:48:55 AM
Well given the huge changes to the power, its odd my downstream only lost maybe 1mbit attainable and my upstream snrm actually increased.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 12:01:50 PM
My weirdness (when it left me with no stats) was on the morning of the 13th June so Ive just run graphPD for the past 7 days.

My signal attenuation changed ever so slightly on same date, although not in the same bands as yours.   My U1 power was ramped up a bit too.   But I cant see anything conclusive.


btw on a separate note... I notice that I also seem to have regained the 'lost upstream SNRm' that I mentioned. It came back on the 14th so that probably was more crosstalk related and nothing to do with either.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 16, 2015, 12:42:03 PM
@NS

Im as bad because I also should have twigged this and said earlier.  So in reality it took them 2 months to do all the line upgrades.


Your right Kitz it does look like the MK2 rollout is quicker this time around as it only took Roseway 22 days this time round while the MK1 took Roseway 1 month and 17 days.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on June 16, 2015, 04:29:38 PM
. . . (second user on a newly enabled Huawei cab, ECI modem)
<snip>

Just flagging what Gareth wrote earlier, in parenthesis, above. A combination of Huawei cabinet and an ECI modem.

Could that be significant?  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 05:27:37 PM
I dont think so b*cat - unless I'm missing something?

The cabs were done at Stage One (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284195.html#msg284195) which was a separate process than Stage Two which is when the DLM profiles were applied to the individual lines.

As mentioned in my post here (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg290384.html#msg290384).  I would expect the cab to have had its f/w updated before any lines went live.   

There is no reason why the f/w upgrade to the cab wont have gone ahead, and it was only the DLM profiles on a line basis that was suspended.   The issue with the rollout was the DLM profiles on the individual lines and it was this that the fix addresses by making the default profile for upstream available "Upstream, Error Protection Off".

This same upstream profile is also used for lines pre-G.INP, but you can tell the difference by looking at the downstream profile too.

So the default profile for a line which is Pre G.INP will say:
Quote
Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Error Protection Off - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

The default profile for a line which was been MKI G.INP will be something like:
Quote
Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Retransmission Low

But a line which is MKII G.INP should say something like:
Quote
Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low  - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

Confusion could occur at a later stage if and when its had retransmission applied and DLM decides it needs more protection, then it could say something like Interleaving in there too and it wont be quite so easy to spot.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 16, 2015, 05:46:59 PM
Unfortunately though when HG612stats locks up with the double instance, this then causes DSLstats to also not record.. so I dont have a clue what was happening at around 3:30 and Ive no stats from either. :(



You could try the attached version of HG612_stats.exe from 12th June.
It contains 'some' bug fixes etc. that MIGHT deal with the double instances etc.

Unfortunately, I can't reproduce the problem, so fixing it is a bit hit & miss.


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 06:55:26 PM
Thanks BE - appreciated.   I understand that it is something that would be hard to replicate - its not something that happens every day to me either.   I wasnt even going to mention it.. and probably wouldnt if it hadnt been for the fact that chrys hadnt mentioned that something weird happened on his cab too.

Its only once every few months when it seems to get stuck with a double instance, so its no big deal.     As soon as I clear it out of Task Manager then all is good again :)   I suppose the most annoying thing is because DSLstats also detects an instance of it, then that also stops reporting too.   I eventually noticed when I saw DSLstats flashing in my sys tray that something had gone wrong.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 16, 2015, 07:03:11 PM
And just a thought Kitz why not use a Raspberry Pi to gather stats just for DSLstats and HG612_Modem_stats on the PC this way if one fails it won't take both out at the same time, but you may need to make a new account on MDWS IE: KITZ and KITZ-PI.

It's just a suggestion as i have noted you have had the same issue before while running both at the same time.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 07:23:38 PM
I think mostly because I dont have a Pi.  Ive cut right back on my network equipment these days.. and secondly the PC is always on anyhow because it checks something on the kitz server.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on June 16, 2015, 09:04:03 PM
I dont think so b*cat - unless I'm missing something?

I don't think you have missed anything. I only mentioned the different devices at either end of the link, just in case.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 16, 2015, 09:06:59 PM
:)

Good stuff, just checking I hadnt missed something either.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 16, 2015, 10:37:28 PM
Its only once every few months when it seems to get stuck with a double instance, so its no big deal.     As soon as I clear it out of Task Manager then all is good again :)   I suppose the most annoying thing is because DSLstats also detects an instance of it, then that also stops reporting too.   I eventually noticed when I saw DSLstats flashing in my sys tray that something had gone wrong.


HG612_stats.exe should complete & exit normally within a few seconds.
However, a PC really busy doing other things can slow the program down.
Also, a timeout for whenever MDWS struggles to accept the uploaded logs is built in.

Therefore, there may be occasions when HG612_stats.exe is still running when DSLStats starts sampling.
My suspicion is that this might happen AFTER HG612_stats.exe has checked to see if DSLStats is sampling (it looks for a 'dummy' program that Eric added to DSLStats (dslstatssampling.exe).

So, there may be quite rare occasions when the programs clash, with both of them attempting to access the modem at the same time.

I thought sufficient error handling was built in to deal with double instances, but I might have missed something, somewhere.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 18, 2015, 07:47:51 PM
Cheers BE - Ive responded elsewhere as I think you may have a point re busy PC, as Im pretty certain that was the night it was doing its monthly full drive backup.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 21, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Looks like Baldeagle1 has joined the MK2 club  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 21, 2015, 12:32:00 PM
Update 21/06/2015


It appears my connection (HG612 connected to Huawei cabinet) had the Mk2 G.INP 'fix' applied this morning (removed from upstream).

There was quite a hit percentage-wise on my US sync speed, but SNRM had been running quite low for a few days for an unknown reason (increased crosstalk again  :-\).


I have attached the ongoing montage for the latest f4 days & a pdf document in which I have attempted to highlight the relevant changes.

This was a Reason 1 resync, therefore not all the data was reset to zeros.
I had also previously noticed that not all the new G.INP data is reset to zero even when the modem is fully rebooted, which suggests that 'some' cumulative G.INP data is stored by BTOR (DLM/DSLAM?)

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 21, 2015, 12:33:28 PM
Looks like Baldeagle1 has joined the MK2 club  :)


You just beat me to it by a few seconds  :lol:.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 21, 2015, 12:42:37 PM
I'll let the connection run 'as' is for a few days & then I'll reboot the modem to see what changes (if anything).

I'm not 100% sure that the Bearer 0 RR bits data is correct (RRC bits:      0      24).

As we didn't actually see this particular data pre-G.INP, I 'suspect' that DS & US are being reported transposed. Otherwise, why would it have been removed from DS when it is still G.INP active?.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 21, 2015, 12:44:21 PM
Sorry about that was looking in MDWS resyncs & LOS and noticed you had RDI 1 in the early morning and had a look at your B0 INP.

So i have 2 days to go  :fingers:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on June 21, 2015, 01:35:31 PM
Quote
I'm not 100% sure that the Bearer 0 RR bits data is correct (RRC bits:      0      24).

That's the same as mine reports (I went to G.INP Mk2 5 days ago).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ejs on June 21, 2015, 03:48:02 PM
If I am understanding the ITU G.998.4 pdf correctly, the RRC (Retransmission Return Channel) is used to send acknowledgements for what has been received. If something doesn't get acknowledged it gets re-transmitted. So if G.INP is only enabled for re-transmitting downstream data, then there will only be the RRC on the upstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on June 21, 2015, 03:51:20 PM
If I am understanding the ITU G.998.4 pdf correctly, the RRC (Retransmission Return Channel) is used to send acknowledgements for what has been received. If something doesn't get acknowledged it gets re-transmitted. So if G.INP is only enabled for re-transmitting downstream data, then there will only be the RRC on the upstream.

Yes, indeed, that makes perfect sense.  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 21, 2015, 08:42:45 PM
Quote
There was quite a hit percentage-wise on my US sync speed, but SNRM had been running quite low for a few days for an unknown reason (increased crosstalk again  :-\).

Cant see the actual figures from the graphs {edit swapped to MDWS figures} but as you say I can see 
upstream SNRm appeared to have been running at about 5.5dB  and came back up at 6.2 dB
Sync dropped from 4951 ->  4102

So a good portion of that speed loss is due the the loss of SNRm :( 


One of my neighbours went away of hol..  and since then Ive seen my SNRm increase to the best its been for quite a while.  It had dropped to about 6.3dB at one point, but its now running at about 7dB.   That .7dB has given me about an additional 1.5Mbps of attainable to play with.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 21, 2015, 09:09:15 PM
Yes, indeed, that makes perfect sense.  :)


Yes it does.

Thanks, ejs for pointing that out.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 21, 2015, 09:26:40 PM

Cant see the actual figures from the graphs {edit swapped to MDWS figures} but as you say I can see 
upstream SNRm appeared to have been running at about 5.5dB  and came back up at 6.2 dB
Sync dropped from 4951 ->  4102

So a good portion of that speed loss is due the the loss of SNRm :( 



Sorry. I should have also posted the before Mk2 G.INP & immediately after 'snapshot' graphs (now attached).

Also, from RESYNC.LOG:-

06/06/2015 12:46 - RESYNC detected (DS 21496 Kbps, US 4951 Kbps), AS = 24, Retrain Reason: 1 - G.INP Mk1 - G.INP active on DS & US
21/06/2015 06:21 - RESYNC detected (DS 21289 Kbps, US 4102 Kbps), AS = 40, Retrain Reason: 1 - G.INP Mk2 - G.INP removed from US

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 22, 2015, 09:22:17 AM
No worries as luckily I could get it from mdws.   It does look like a good portion of the speed loss could be down to crosstalk or whatever caused the snrm drop. :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 22, 2015, 10:56:30 PM
All i have witnessed during the G.INP MK2 rollout is that only the current G.INP MK1 users have made this transition there are still plenty of Huawei none G.INP lines waiting for this fix.

So it makes me think the fix is only for lines that currently have the G.INP profile on there lines ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Oldjim on June 23, 2015, 09:50:31 AM
This is probably in the wrong thread - if so please move it - are new cabs being provisioned with G.INP Mk2 as standard (my cab was enabled a few days ago) and as a side question are Openreach still supplying ECL modems rather than or as well as Huawei
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on June 23, 2015, 11:06:12 AM
On a Huawei cabinet here,with a HG612, & I just had major work done on my line,finally got rid of the aluminum cable,  :dance::yay: :dance: gone from 9Mb to 65MB, been up four days & I'm still waiting for a resync to see if speed creeps up a bit.
I now find G.INP is no longer active on my line. :(,  So , I presume it's G.INP MK2 has kicked in, which is a shame, as with G.INP MK1, I was getting around a extra 6Mb plus with it.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 24, 2015, 12:17:47 AM
There will still be some lines that have to 'catch up' ie those that were reset/new lines/ and even migrated lines.   
Those will go straight to Mk2 - I should imagine these will be done when all the Mk1 -> Mk2 updates have been completed.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 24, 2015, 12:20:57 AM
On a Huawei cabinet here,with a HG612, & I just had major work done on my line,finally got rid of the aluminum cable,  :dance::yay: :dance: gone from 9Mb to 65MB, been up four days & I'm still waiting for a resync to see if speed creeps up a bit.
I now find G.INP is no longer active on my line. :(,  So , I presume it's G.INP MK2 has kicked in, which is a shame, as with G.INP MK1, I was getting around a extra 6Mb plus with it.

Sounds more like you've had a reset and you will have to wait for the catch-ups.    If you've lost 6Mbps from the downstream then it sounds like you havent got Mk2, but the 'old profile' pre g.inp Mk1.   I havent looked at your stats to confirm whats going on with your line... but Mk2 should still apply downstream g.inp by default.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on June 24, 2015, 01:08:48 PM
On a Huawei cabinet here,with a HG612, & I just had major work done on my line,finally got rid of the aluminum cable,  :dance::yay: :dance: gone from 9Mb to 65MB, been up four days & I'm still waiting for a resync to see if speed creeps up a bit.
I now find G.INP is no longer active on my line. :(,  So , I presume it's G.INP MK2 has kicked in, which is a shame, as with G.INP MK1, I was getting around a extra 6Mb plus with it.

Sounds more like you've had a reset and you will have to wait for the catch-ups.    If you've lost 6Mbps from the downstream then it sounds like you havent got Mk2, but the 'old profile' pre g.inp Mk1.   I havent looked at your stats to confirm whats going on with your line... but Mk2 should still apply downstream g.inp by default.

Sorry Kitz, I was abit lacking in information, engineer did a DLM reset with his jdsu tester, doing so, it completely removed G.INP Mk1  :(, which had given me around a 6Mb increase previously.
Since Friday, only had one maybe two resync's & a loss of power, my fault that, but connection has stayed rock solid at around 65Mb, no changes,no speed increase, :no: no G.INP Mk1 or Mk2 applied to my connection.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lf2k on June 24, 2015, 01:33:03 PM
@KIAB: looking on MDWS is looks like the reason you don't have G.INP is because you don't need it.  Before, you needed G.INP to get what you had and for it to be stable (before then you would've been interleaved which is why you'd have lost 6Mbps) - now you have a more stable line, you don't need interleaving or G.INP.

69/17.5 is a significant improvement compared to 45/8!  ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on June 24, 2015, 02:16:38 PM
@KIAB: looking on MDWS is looks like the reason you don't have G.INP is because you don't need it.  Before, you needed G.INP to get what you had and for it to be stable (before then you would've been interleaved which is why you'd have lost 6Mbps) - now you have a more stable line, you don't need interleaving or G.INP.

69/17.5 is a significant improvement compared to 45/8!  ;D

Well, it's taken nearly 5 years of complaining to higher powers in BT & OR, to finally get the aluminum replaced. :yay:
Made myself very, very unpopular :D, but I had no intention of backing down & letting them walk over me.
Very please with speed increase from 9-14Mb to 65Mb DL, & UL now 15Mb, previously around 3-5Mb.
I was hoping DLM would up the speed a bit more, but nothing so far, but I'm very satisify with what I now have. :)

Stats recorded 24 Jun 2015 14:18:52

DSLAM/MSAN type:           BDCM:0xa44f / v0xa44f
Modem/router firmware:     AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode:                  VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                    Showtime
Uptime:                    22 hours 47 min 39 sec
Resyncs:                   0 (since 24 Jun 2015 14:18:46)
         
            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     17.8      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not available on VDSL2      
Connection speed (kbps):   68906      17350
SNR margin (dB):           6.3      6.1
Power (dBm):               13.8      7.4
Interleave depth:          1      1
INP:                       0      0
G.INP:                     Not enabled      

RSCorr/RS (%):             N/A      0.0808
RSUnCorr/RS (%):           N/A      0.0000
ES/hour:                   0      0


Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on June 24, 2015, 02:17:21 PM
I just got mk.IIed a few hours ago, I'm pretty peed off at the loss of upstream G.INP and consequential loss of upstream sync. And I'm still banded on downstream. my downstream SNR is almost 9 and has been high since MK.I was applied back in March. This line absolutely needs G.INP in both directions, what the hell are BT playing at?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 24, 2015, 10:00:33 PM
I just got mk.IIed a few hours ago, 

Once you've tasted the Mk1 in both directions nothing else comes close a good bit of technology and the fix is to cripple one part of the technology thats not a fix it's a downgrade.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: andyfitter on June 25, 2015, 07:43:23 AM
And I'm still banded on downstream.
.

Same here. Been stuck at 66999 down since G.INP MK I  applied in March with around 8dB snrm. Bah
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on June 25, 2015, 08:31:12 AM
Same here. Been stuck at 66999 down since G.INP MK I  applied in March with around 8dB snrm. Bah
using what modem?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: andyfitter on June 25, 2015, 08:34:20 AM
Unlocked HG612 with latest firmware - my stats are posted as andyf

Before G.INP I was using a shonky DSL-AC68U for many months and I think it got some very sticky banding added to my line.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on June 26, 2015, 02:34:05 PM
My line swapped G.INP from Mk.I to Mk.II this morning.

Downstream, the INP setting went from 46 to 48, and some queue sizes changed, but otherwise all framing parameters stayed the same.

Upstream, bearer 0 reverted to INP=0, delay=0 (so will match a named line profile of "No Protection"). The framing changed to remove interleaving, but the FEC remained - now consuming about twice the bandwidth as in Mk.I, and back to identical values as pre-G.INP. My attainable speed dropped by 2Mbps (34.5 to 32.5), which was probably all explained by the extra FEC.

According to the Samknows tests, my UDP latency dropped after the resync, by about 0.5ms ... but it must be stressed that I've seen lower latency values while Mk.I has been in place (the Samknows tests can move around somewhat).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: mikelj on June 26, 2015, 02:37:11 PM

And I'm still banded on downstream.
.

Same here. Been stuck at 66999 down since G.INP MK I  applied in March with around 8dB snrm. Bah

My DS has been banded at 60000 with a SNRM of 9dB since G.INP Mk 1 applied around March too. My Billion router regularly reports attainable as around 70000 and my ES are around 12 per week. Still don't understand why I'm banded.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 26, 2015, 02:57:38 PM
Thanks for the updates.

@wombat.  Yep what I would have expected to see (and as usual) you're correct as to the reasons why upstream attainable has decreased and also about the delay.   I would expect that Mk.I should have slightly increased your downstream latency, but very minimally so not noticeable. I would also expect it to be slightly less on Mk.II but due to the small values I really cant see anyone noticing or them being able to say its affecting their line on a day to day basis.

>>> my UDP latency dropped after the resync, by about 0.5ms ... but it must be stressed that I've seen lower latency values while Mk.I

hmmm  :hmm:

btw can you do me a favour please and see if you can check things like your R value from pre-INP to now that you are on G.INP Mk2.   Ive seen someone imply that theirs has increased.. and that they are now getting more FEC overheads.    I'd be interested on your line because I know its very stable and has no need for DLM intervention,  therefore should give a very good indication if there are differences or not.


----
PS.    Whats your upstream throughput like.  Have you experienced any loss in actual throughput speed.    I usually get circa 73.5/18.7 (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html?id=143533175407089571401). 

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on June 26, 2015, 03:31:11 PM
btw can you do me a favour please and see if you can check things like your R value from pre-INP to now that you are on G.INP Mk2.   Ive seen someone imply that theirs has increased.. and that they are now getting more FEC overheads.    I'd be interested on your line because I know its very stable and therefore should give a very good indication if there are differences or not.

Absolutely identical. It was one of the parameters I meant when I talked about framing, and I most certainly would have said something!

Before G.INP---Mk.I G.INP---Mk.II G.INP
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           18              26
B:              239             237
M:              1               1
T:              23              42
R:              0               16
S:              0.0955          0.3781
L:              20104           5374
D:              1               1
I:              240             127
N:              240             254
---                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              -6
B:              130             97
M:              1               1
T:              0               0
R:              8               8
S:              0.0518          0.1554
L:              21468           5457
D:              16              8
I:              139             106
N:              139             106
Q:              16              8
V:              14              2
RxQueue:                57              39
TxQueue:                19              13
G.INP Framing:          18              18
G.INP lookback:         19              13
RRC bits:               24              24
---                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              26
B:              130             237
M:              1               1
T:              0               42
R:              8               16
S:              0.0518          0.3781
L:              21468           5374
D:              16              1
I:              139             127
N:              139             254
Q:              16              0
V:              14              0
RxQueue:                60              0
TxQueue:                20              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         20              0
RRC bits:               0               24
                        Bearer 0
INP:            0.00            0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
---                        Bearer 0
INP:            46.00           47.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
---                        Bearer 0
INP:            48.00           0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0

Hope that layout works for everyone.

I would expect that Mk.I should have slightly increased your downstream latency, but very minimally so not noticeable. I would also expect it to be slightly less on Mk.II but due to the small values I really cant see anyone noticing or them being able to say its affecting their line on a day to day basis.

I remember estimating that the downstream interleaving settings probably amounted to 0.2ms; the framing parameters above suggest the extra upstream latency (in Mk.I) would have been worth half that (16*139 down vs 8*106 up), so 0.1ms.

I can't say that I am sure I can validly compare upstream and downstream in this way - I'd be happier calculating from a line that had a real "INP=3, delay=8" upstream setting.

However, I agree that it probably isn't noticeable.

I've attached the latency test results over the last month, so the variation can be seen. There were only 2 resyncs in that period, and I've highlighted both of them; the latter is the activation of Mk.II
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on June 26, 2015, 03:50:44 PM
Quote
Absolutely identical. It was one of the parameters I meant when I talked about framing, and I most certainly would have said something!

Thank you very much for providing those figures.  Layout works fine thanks :)
 
I'd suspected that any differences on other lines may have been more something to do with the stability of the line and why I was so interested in seeing yours.   As I can quite clearly see the MKII R,I,N values are the same pre-g.inp.. so that puts to bed any theories that as long as the modem is g.inp compatible then with Mk.II g.inp, the line does NOT experience any degradation or additional overheads than what they would have seen prior to the roll out.

Thanks also for the latency graph.  If Ive read it correctly, then a very rough guestimate would put your average latency at 13-13.25 and now it appears to be at about 12.5ms  As you say it is variable and early days, but on the face of it it does so far look like there perhaps has been a slight improvement?


You may have also missed by edit in my last post about throughput speed. I would be interested to see if you now have trouble reaching anything over 18Mbps on the upstream.  tyvm for all your input. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on June 30, 2015, 11:48:46 AM
I have witnessed a MDWS user who's Upstream was non G.INP enabled and this morning it's been enabled  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on July 02, 2015, 11:54:35 AM
And there it was, gone :(
Quote
Hi Dray

This is to let you know that a resync/restart occurred on your line at 02-07-2015 11:49 local time (+/- 1 minute).

Reason: 1 Remote Defect Indicator/DLM

Current Downstream Sync Rate is now 80000kbps Current Upstream Sync Rate is now 19999kbps
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on July 02, 2015, 02:52:27 PM
@NS: Perhaps that person has an error rate that is floating around the threshold to trigger "proper" DLM intervention on the upstream. Perhaps he's flitting between the Mk.II default (no G.INP upstream) and a proper DLM line profile that includes G.INP deliberately.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on July 02, 2015, 02:54:06 PM
Thanks also for the latency graph.  If Ive read it correctly, then a very rough guestimate would put your average latency at 13-13.25 and now it appears to be at about 12.5ms  As you say it is variable and early days, but on the face of it it does so far look like there perhaps has been a slight improvement?

You may have also missed by edit in my last post about throughput speed. I would be interested to see if you now have trouble reaching anything over 18Mbps on the upstream.  tyvm for all your input.

I did indeed miss the edit, and I'll come back later with updates to the latency graph, and include both speed graphs. However, those are showing something up that I want to investigate...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: adslmax on July 02, 2015, 04:16:31 PM
My line has been resync by DLM this morning:

BEFORE:
Interleaved 16/8
INP 46.00/47.00
Sync 79999/20000

NOW:
Interleaved 16/1
INP 48.00/00.00
Sync 79999/19999
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on July 08, 2015, 07:31:56 PM
Has the rollout finished yet for the Huwai cabinets?  Should everyone with ECI cabs (me included) start to hope for some news soon?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on July 08, 2015, 08:07:59 PM
Huwai cabinet here (Bath) & I still haven't got it yet. :no:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: peterj on July 08, 2015, 08:17:05 PM
Same here in Essex. Cab enabled after Mk1 roll out halted so no G.INP at all.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: simoncraddock on July 08, 2015, 08:22:10 PM
I hope they don't bugger things up with ECI cabs, my line is stable and rated 'green' using Kitz MTBE/MTBR DLM calculator.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: adslmax on July 08, 2015, 08:26:24 PM
I notice my G.INP got ES/CRC error even it was enabled as I thought ES/CRC will not counted?

Code: [Select]
Since Link time = 6 days 7 hours 11 min 11 sec
FEC:            54137           4380
CRC:            112             961
ES:             14              360
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on July 08, 2015, 11:23:29 PM
Has the rollout finished yet for the Huwai cabinets?  Should everyone with ECI cabs (me included) start to hope for some news soon?

Black sheep stated in another thread that us on ECI cabs might not see anything start until the end of the year, not great but it's something, hopefully that remains true but with openreach you never can tell.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 08, 2015, 11:41:52 PM
And when doe's the non G.INP enabled Huawei lines start getting G.INP enabled as it's coming up two months since the rollout and getting very impatient here surly all the Mk1's should have been updated to Mk2 by now.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on July 09, 2015, 07:24:25 AM
Has the rollout finished yet for the Huwai cabinets?  Should everyone with ECI cabs (me included) start to hope for some news soon?

Black sheep stated in another thread that us on ECI cabs might not see anything start until the end of the year, not great but it's something, hopefully that remains true but with openreach you never can tell.

........... and that still stands true. I would hope that you start seeing implementation on ECI's sometime in August.  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on July 09, 2015, 08:20:35 AM
And when doe's the non G.INP enabled Huawei lines start getting G.INP enabled as it's coming up two months since the rollout and getting very impatient here surly all the Mk1's should have been updated to Mk2 by now.

I had G.INP Mk1, then after some serious line work, & a DLM reset, it has gone for ever :(, & there is no signs of Mk 2 making an appearance.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on July 09, 2015, 11:28:45 AM
When I spoke to someone a couple of weeks ago they were about half way.  I'd estimate that they are now about 3/4 done.   
The catch ups for any Huawei lines which never got Mk1 should commence as soon as all the Mk1 -> Mk2 updates are complete.

I have several questions still awaiting a response,  my contact isn't always the quickest at answering things I'm afraid, but if I do get any answers then they come from a very reliable source who should know what he's talking about.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: adslmax on July 09, 2015, 11:31:29 AM
Just had my FTTC resync this morning around 4am

Before:
Interleaved 16/1
INP 48.00/00.00
Sync 79999/19999

Now:
Interleaved 1/1
INP 00.00/00.00
Sync 79999/19999
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 09, 2015, 11:48:35 AM
Just had my FTTC resync this morning around 4am

Turn on your MDWS so we can have a look
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 09, 2015, 10:38:37 PM
I had G.INP Mk1, then after some serious line work, & a DLM reset, it has gone for ever :(, & there is no signs of Mk 2 making an appearance.

Yep it is a worrie that the the new DLM G.INP Mk2 profile may bypass users who had the Mk1 G.INP after the rollout was halted after a line reset or migration.

My cabinet is G.INP enabled all customers in this area have it and they could already have the Mk2.

New FTTC Huawei cabinets & lines will still need the stage1 because it was halted on the 1st week of April 2015 and the 2nd rollout is to fix the current G.INP Mk1 customers.

I don't know if the Mk2 rollout knows if a line lost the Mk1 or not ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lemzip on July 11, 2015, 06:47:46 AM
Hi

A little update to possible let people know.

I missed the MK1 roll out (when they stopped rolling it out after the debacle) and finally been rolled out this morning on the MK2

Jul 11 06:42:47 syslog: Line 0: VDSL2 link up, Bearer 0, us=9999, ds=40000
Jul 11 06:42:47 syslog: Line 0: VDSL2 link up, Bearer 1, us=0, ds=0

I have lost some DS SNR (5db) but i will see how it goes. This is on a SKY Hub SR102 in a Huawei cab. No one seems to know the chipset of these sky hubs?

Perhaps this shows that people should get it?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: mbb on July 11, 2015, 03:37:05 PM
line rebooted today and now have g.inp enabled. i had a new line installed on may 1st so have been stuck on old dlm with no g.inp. line rebooted today it seems and interleaving is still on but latency has gone down by 8

i have been uploading stats to mdws for a few days on the old non g.inp and and doing the same now. username is markb
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 11, 2015, 05:30:05 PM
line rebooted today and now have g.inp enabled.

Cheers mbb & lemzip for the info that's what I wanted to see non G.INP lines being moved onto the G.INP profile

& Markb you gained 10 Mbps in DS sync  ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: mbb on July 11, 2015, 05:37:26 PM
ya wierd i had 75 sync for 10 day traning period then 65 for the whole time i was interleaved. my line changed to fastpath@75 for 10 days then back to interleaved@65
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 11, 2015, 05:44:45 PM
Well Markb with G.INP now enabled the DS errored seconds should be much lower than the two previous profiles and you should stay at 75Mbps DS sync for a good while :fingers:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lemzip on July 11, 2015, 06:48:35 PM
any idea why my snr would have dropped?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 11, 2015, 07:43:40 PM
any idea why my snr would have dropped?

Has the loss of 5dB SNRM impacted your DS sync rate because it seems quite a lot to lose when moving to G.INP Mk2 and don't have much knowledge in how your SKY Hub SR102 displays the modem stats or telenet data.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lemzip on July 11, 2015, 08:39:49 PM
new stats:

Connection Speed   40000 kbps   9999 kbps
Line Attenuation   16.8 dB   0.0 dB
Noise Margin   21.8 dB   22.22 dB


Previous stats:


Connection Speed   39998 kbps   9999 kbps
Line Attenuation   16.7 dB   0.0 dB
Noise Margin   26.3 dB   25.25 dB
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 11, 2015, 08:56:11 PM
new stats:

Connection Speed   40000 kbps   9999 kbps
Line Attenuation   16.8 dB   0.0 dB
Noise Margin   21.8 dB   22.22 dB


Previous stats:


Connection Speed   39998 kbps   9999 kbps
Line Attenuation   16.7 dB   0.0 dB
Noise Margin   26.3 dB   25.25 dB

A bit of crosstalk maybe was added to your line since your previous re-sync and you lost 3dB on the upstream to since G.INP Mk2, you must be on a 40/10 service with all that extra SNRM to hand would be interesting to see what you get on 80/20 service  :cool:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lemzip on July 11, 2015, 10:36:39 PM
yeah just more concerned that i lost so much ds snr. I wish i knew more about the sky hub to see what chipset etc but it seems a mystery around the internet.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: WWWombat on July 14, 2015, 05:26:34 AM
new stats:

Connection Speed   40000 kbps   9999 kbps
Line Attenuation   16.8 dB   0.0 dB
Noise Margin   21.8 dB   22.22 dB


Previous stats:


Connection Speed   39998 kbps   9999 kbps
Line Attenuation   16.7 dB   0.0 dB
Noise Margin   26.3 dB   25.25 dB

It could have been crosstalk, indeed, but very coincidental timing.

Another option is that the modems have negotiated additional FEC protection on the downstream, without additional interleaving; many lines used to do this upstream - provided there was a lot of spare capacity available.

In this case, the connection speed stayed at the package maximum - 40Mbps - so the system could obviously afford to expend bits for additional FEC protection.

I guy the Sky hub doesn't give you enough information about the FEC and interleaving settings.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lf2k on July 16, 2015, 06:44:45 AM
Just checking in to say I now have G.INP as of this morning.

Huawei cabinet went live March 15th, line wnt live on 1st April...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on July 17, 2015, 11:23:53 AM
Waits for NS to post his news ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on July 17, 2015, 11:41:42 AM
You got there before me :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on July 17, 2015, 12:00:06 PM
lots of enables today.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 17, 2015, 12:21:22 PM
lots of enables today.

Yep 64 days later since the loss of Mk1 it appeared on my line this morning with the Mk2 version  ;D

It also gave me an extra 5Mbps but i'll need to keep an eye on the DS SNRM during RFI sunset time  :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on July 17, 2015, 12:41:15 PM
lots of enables today.

It probably seems like it because they are doing the catchups, so because there are a lot less catchups to do than the nationwide Mk1 -> MK2 , they will appear to move quicker. All the catchups should take less than a couple of weeks, so bearing in mind the first catch-up showed about a week ago, there's only a few more days left until all Huawei lines should be done.   
I'm sure I said in a post somewhere several weeks ago that estimated completion was mid to end July, but dunno which post I said that in now because I must have forgot to put it in the update thread :/

Quote from: kitz
18/06/2015 - Progress report
Mk1 to Mk2 updates about half way done.
Any Huawei lines which missed Mk1 because their line went live after March or have had a DLM reset will go straight to Mk2 profile when the  Mk1 -> Mk2 upgrades are complete.
ECI situation to be reviewed after completion of the Huawei cabs.

12/07/2015 - Progress report
All Huawei Mk1 -> Mk2 upgrades should be complete.
Currently rolling out G.INP to the 'catchup' lines.  Anticipated full completion of the Huawei lines within the next couple of weeks.



Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on July 17, 2015, 01:08:22 PM
Found I now have G.INP enabled this morning, speed has gone up to 75Mb from the previous 69Mb. :)

And the SNR has dropped a bit to Down 6.2 & Up 5.6.

EDIT: On a Huawei cab here.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on July 17, 2015, 02:11:52 PM
Found I now have G.INP enabled this morning, speed has gone up to 75Mb from the previous 69Mb. :)

And the SNR has dropped a bit to Down 6.2 & Up 5.6.
Does anyone know why Ginp may give you more not less speed? I have major crosstalk issues on eci cab so if ginp ever comes along I hope I will get a bit of speed back but as ginp is another channel bearer1 wouldn't that mean the bandwidth b1 takes up would cause a speed drop?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on July 17, 2015, 02:51:02 PM
Found I now have G.INP enabled this morning, speed has gone up to 75Mb from the previous 69Mb. :)

And the SNR has dropped a bit to Down 6.2 & Up 5.6.
Does anyone know why Ginp may give you more not less speed? I have major crosstalk issues on eci cab so if ginp ever comes along I hope I will get a bit of speed back but as ginp is another channel bearer1 wouldn't that mean the bandwidth b1 takes up would cause a speed drop?

I too am looking forward to the day of when ECI DSLAM's get G.INP, if that day ever arrives that is. Regarding the bearer 1, as I understand it the second bearer is used when G.INP needs to do things such as retransmit due to an error in the original transmission attempt. As such it has no actual bandwidth on the bearer and is dynamically used. I can't explain why G.INP gives more speed generally though, but it's obviously related to how it corrects errors and is therefore far more efficient than the traditional INP.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on July 17, 2015, 02:52:38 PM
In essence, G.INP improves the reliability of the connection which allows it to run at a faster rate.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on July 17, 2015, 04:05:19 PM
I can't explain why G.INP gives more speed generally though, but it's obviously related to how it corrects errors and is therefore far more efficient than the traditional INP.

The extra speed is gained from using bandwidth that would otherwise have been reserved for error correction overheads. G.INP has little or no overheads except at the instant retransmission is actually occurring, at which point available bandwidth will drop slightly, but will be restored once retransmission completes, rather than allocating x% of the channel for error correction at all times, whether necessary at any given instant or not.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on July 17, 2015, 04:41:58 PM
In essence, G.INP improves the reliability of the connection which allows it to run at a faster rate.

So, would I see any further improvement in the speed changing from a HG612 to a Billion 8800NL?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on July 17, 2015, 04:46:27 PM
So, would I see any further improvement in the speed changing from a HG612 to a Billion 8800NL?

There's no way of knowing. In my case they have virtually identical DSL performance.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: peterj on July 18, 2015, 11:29:16 AM
I was enabled about 45 minutes ago. Speed has gone up from 36.25 to 42.75 so quite pleased with that. I am on a cab that was enabled mid April, so after first roll out was suspended.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on July 18, 2015, 12:06:02 PM
Quote
Does anyone know why Ginp may give you more not less speed? I have major crosstalk issues on eci cab so if ginp ever comes along I hope I will get a bit of speed back but as ginp is another channel bearer1 wouldn't that mean the bandwidth b1 takes up would cause a speed drop?

Loonylions post explains the crux of it.   G.INP is a form of error Protection.  Where as the traditional form of using Reed Soloman for Error Correction caused overheads because it carries redundant data that is used to re-assemble data if some of it is lost through noise bursts etc.   

Reed Soloman (RS encoding) means that redundant data is carried 100% of the time, so if the line isnt erroring then that redundant data is being transmitted taking up some of the bandwidth and reducing the available sync. 
 
G.INP stores data in a buffer and if data is corrupted, then and only then is it re-requested. Bearer 1 only retransmits data from the buffer when needed.  However unlike Error Correction it cant re-assemble corrupt data, just attempt to request and if the re-request fails then this triggers traditional CRC type errors.   It all depends on the type of noise bursts but g.inp is very good in particular for REIN type bursts which are very short.

The downsides of G.INP - it doesnt cope as well for different (longer) noise bursts, so some lines would be better served with traditional Error Correction.   There's also some good/short lines that dont need any error protection or error correction which wont really see any benefit.
   
It comes to real benefit for lines which previously needed Error Correction for REIN type noise.  Their increased sync comes from giving back speed which was previously taken via RS overheads. However as already mentioned by LL, whilst those with g.inp may think they have a better sync - at times of noise then their available bandwidth does drop whilst retransmission is occurring.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 18, 2015, 01:45:32 PM
Since i've been blessed with G.INP again on the HG612 my curious side is wondering should i try it out on the Brightbox 2 it's being used as router and not as a VDSL modem.

Don't know should i leave it as it is ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on July 18, 2015, 02:38:36 PM
now its all good I would leave as is, plus I think having the modem separate is superior.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 18, 2015, 02:47:28 PM
now its all good I would leave as is, plus I think having the modem separate is superior.

Thankyou Chry & think that's good idea sometimes curiosity gets the better of me.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on July 18, 2015, 06:41:09 PM
Reed Soloman (RS encoding) means that redundant data is carried 100% of the time, so if the line isnt erroring then that redundant data is being transmitted taking up some of the bandwidth and reducing the available sync.

Thanks for detailed answer.  So even if I have not been interleaved Ginp may still give some benefit to sync speeds?  I have approx 100 ES per day and 2 CRC errors per minute but lost approximately 40% download sync due to crosstalk.  TIA.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on July 18, 2015, 07:14:48 PM
RS encoding - Error Correction - is turned on at the same time as Interleaving, as theres not much point using interleaving without it.

So no not much benefit for lines which currently dont have any form of DLM intervention and these may take a small but negligible hit.

Quote from: kitz
There's also some good/short lines that dont need any error protection or error correction which wont really see any benefit.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Oldjim on July 24, 2015, 05:06:38 PM
Having just installed dslstats I was very surprised to get this on an 8800NL router as the cab is Huawei and even though I started with an ECI modem I would have thought that the Mk2 version would have been applied. Note that it is a very new cab (only a couple of weeks old) supplied under BDUK
            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     21.5      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not monitored      
Connection speed (kbps):   43949      10886
SNR margin (dB):           5.7      6.4
Power (dBm):               12.5      6.4
Interleave depth:          861      1
INP:                       3.00      0
G.INP:                     Not enabled
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on July 24, 2015, 09:53:28 PM
Quote
Note that it is a very new cab (only a couple of weeks old) supplied under BDUK

The newer cabs and those lines which have had a reset/migration are the last to be done.  Since mid Jun its been implied that those 'catchups' will be done after all the other Mk1->Mk2 conversions have been done.  It was estimated that these would take a couple of weeks and eta for completion was mid to late July.   The last updates were in this post here (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284195.html#msg284195), although it was in the main thread that I hinted eta for full completion was late July.

We're currently seeing those final lines being upgraded and so there cant be many more to do now. 
Trying to make some sort of order out of no actual conclusive data, it appears that they may be doing the catchups in chronological order, so the fact that your cab is so very new means that it may be one of the last to get it put on.   There are still lines being updated every day, there were a couple more done today on MDWS funny enough at about tea-time.  I think there's only about 3 more on MDWS left to be done now.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Oldjim on July 24, 2015, 10:20:09 PM
Thanks I will post on here when it happens
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on July 24, 2015, 10:29:24 PM
iirc it was the 12th Jun that I saw the first of the 'catch up' batches start...  and going off the indication of only 'a couple of weeks to do the catch-ups', hopefully it shouldn't be too long now :)  :fingers:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 26, 2015, 07:44:30 PM
Hello Kitz I waited 9 days after G.INP Mk2 was enabled on my line before testing out the Brightbox2 and it comes as no surprise it's working well with G.INP have a sync rate of 37579 that's 2000 Kbps more than the HG612.

It's kind of funny I started of with a DS sync of 27000 Kbps over 3 years ago on FTTC and now it's increased by 10579 Kbps were as all you here theses days on FTTC is users sync rates are lowering due to crosstalk.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 28, 2015, 11:49:49 AM
What the hell is going on it's seem my line has had a resync RDI 1 at 00:27 the sync has increased but much lower SNRM is this the effect of vectoring  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ronski on July 28, 2015, 12:39:01 PM
That snrm is very low, but nice increase in speed, will it last and is it vectoring???
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 28, 2015, 12:58:34 PM
It must be one of those clitch's just did a modem reboot (30mins) and all back to normal  :fingers:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on July 28, 2015, 03:35:32 PM
might have been an idea to leave it as g.inp kept your error rate low even with the lower snrm :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 28, 2015, 05:21:15 PM
might have been an idea to leave it as g.inp kept your error rate low even with the lower snrm :)

I'm to cautious Chry, indeed g.inp was keeping the DS error rate low but the interleave depth went up from 8 to 16 during this odd event, I ran a speedtest it showed a thoughput of 37995 Kbps the highest ever seen on this line.

But I can see the US DLM error status has already entered into an amber state on the bottom (stable) if i had g.inp on the upstream this would not happen.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on August 01, 2015, 09:49:23 AM
G.INP has now been re-enabled on my line but only on the downstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on August 01, 2015, 10:26:48 AM
It looks like it makes a big difference - from 37 to 43 Mbps
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on August 01, 2015, 02:01:47 PM
G.INP has now been re-enabled on my line but only on the downstream.

Indeed this time from the looks of it your line has been moved onto the Mk2 and this will remove G.INP on the upstream and still think your were put onto the Mk1 on the 21 July by accident.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on August 01, 2015, 02:34:49 PM
It's a right pain as now I'm getting upstream errors (granted they are small).

G.INP was working perfectly on the downstream and upstream so I still don't understand why it was removed :no:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: jid on August 01, 2015, 03:23:08 PM
It's a right pain as now I'm getting upstream errors (granted they are small).

G.INP was working perfectly on the downstream and upstream so I still don't understand why it was removed :no:

Same here. Seems it'll be a waiting game to see if DLM thinks your line is suited for G.INP on both up and down.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on August 01, 2015, 03:39:44 PM
Quote
It looks like it makes a big difference - from 37 to 43 Mbps

Thats only because it's removed INP, Error Correction and Interleaving.   This hasnt gone from a clean profile. 
I said in the other thread the line was almost behaving like what we'd see when a non-g.inp modem was on the line and I wondered if the DLM would detect in the next day or so that there was actually a g.inp compatible modem on the other end and apply G.INP.  It looks like it has.


Quote
It's a right pain as now I'm getting upstream errors

Why is it a pain?  You had 340 E/S yesterday which is perfectly acceptable.  They crept up very slowly over the course of the day.   
Don't get hung up on them because they occur on most VDSL lines... youre pushing the limit of copper to the highest frequencies.  Even good short lines get Errored Seconds.    E/Secs simply mean that over the course of a second, you got something like a CRC which you wont notice, its done faster than the blink of an eye, fraction of a millisecond. It wont have affected your line performance.
 
If the DLM thinks you are getting too many, then it will apply some form of action - and if need be putting G.INP back on again.  It only puts in on if it thinks the line needs it. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on August 01, 2015, 04:05:43 PM
I'd rather have no errors than some errors and with G.INP on before, I was getting absolutely none.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on August 01, 2015, 04:23:19 PM
Your downstream looks to be the highest it's ever been but your upstream looks to be off by 1.5 Mbps
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on August 01, 2015, 04:42:59 PM
Quote
I'd rather have no errors than some errors

So would most people, but it's not something to be bothered about.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on August 01, 2015, 04:55:07 PM
Quote
I'd rather have no errors than some errors

... but but but...  you'd be getting retransmit going on.    :-\

Just because its 'hidden' over a different channel doesn't make the line perfect.   Its not going to stop any SNRm fluctuations or make noise less.   Its just a different way of retransmitting any data lost because of noise.   G.INP still has its own overheads.... and less bandwidth during the time of retransmit.

Personally, I'd rather have not have G.INP on a line that was throwing very few errors! 

G.INP comes into its own when it replaces Interleaving and Error Correction.  If the line has sufficient errors to benefit from Interleaving and RS error correction then g.inp is a very good thing...  but even then there are cases where traditional RS & Interleaving are better than G.INP.   It all depends on the type of burst noise you get.   

When it comes to G.INP, I think some people are getting too hooked up on Errored seconds without looking at whats going on behind the scenes and the bigger picture.  It will simply be shifting the error count elsewhere... and just because it may allow you to sync at a higher rate, it doesn't mean that at times of ReTx your'e getting that full bandwidth.   With g.inp you're unlikely to see Err Secs, but for gawds sake dont start panicking if you look at the figures now for things like LEFTRS because.. oops that line has a few errors and thats now the count of any defects. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on August 01, 2015, 08:30:43 PM
If you want zero errored seconds on G.INP your going to have compromise your Sync rate by lowering it by using the capping command or by finding the SNRM sweet spot for your line it's a bit like give and take it's mazing how losing 500 to 2000kbps sync can lower the errored seconds on both US and DS ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on August 02, 2015, 09:20:42 AM

G.INP comes into its own when it replaces Interleaving and Error Correction.  If the line has sufficient errors to benefit from Interleaving and RS error correction then g.inp is a very good thing...  but even then there are cases where traditional RS & Interleaving are better than G.INP.   It all depends on the type of burst noise you get.   
 


G.INP doesn't always completely replace traditional RS error correction etc.
With my Broadcom chipped HG612 modem on a Huawei DSLAM, DS Interleaving depth of 8, my own connection uses both methods for DS (G.INP Mk2).

Even when pre-G.INP, my connection was on fastpath for DS & US, I saw a low level of FEC/RSCorr error correction.
I believe this was due to Broadcom's proprietary retransmission ability, which seems to have continued since G.INP was activated.

As the attached graphs show, I am seeing an average of around 15,000 RSCorr per day these days.
Pre-G.INP it was typically averaging around 5,000.
Note: The slight seasonal increase in line attenuation that my connection experiences, plus addition of the low interleaving depth possibly account for the RSCorr increase, but with lower overhead.

The big change for my connection though, was the reduction in CRC counts & errored seconds (from around 900 to 1000 ES per day to just one or two).

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on August 02, 2015, 01:26:27 PM
It all depends upon the type of noise experienced by your line, but I would fully expect G.INP to mostly remove CRC & E/Secs. 

With the old way when data was lost through noise burst (if FEC wasn't enabled or the burst was too long for FEC) then a CRC (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/error_correction.htm#CRC) would be triggered.  CRC is the indicator of a corrupt packet and an instruction is issued to re-request the data at a higher layer.    A single CRC should also trigger an Err/Sec, although multiple CRCs in the same second time frame will only record 1 Err/Sec.

With retransmission if data is lost then detection and retransmission is done between the modem and dslam, if an error is detected then it attempts to retransmit from the buffer.   I dont fully understand all the ReTX counters and need to do proper research when I get time, but my understanding is that its ETR/LEFTR where most of this goes on.  LEFTRS would kind of be the equivalent to Errored Seconds, but its not and the two cant be directly compared because its not a count measurement of time when theres been a data error, but a ratio measurement of when LEFTR was below the ETR.

Unlike CRC, Retransmission doesnt keep trying and trying to send data (limited buffer size) and there are times when the noise burst may be too long for ReTX to be able to recover data,  so it is still possible to see the traditional types of errors requiring higher level action.

However because you'd expect ReTransmission to catch most of the data defects, then its obvious that its now counters like LEFTRS are going to be the ones recording data errors first.   I suspect (and again something I need to look further into before saying for certain) that with G.INP, the DLM may also be monitoring something like LEFTRS to determine line performance and if need be adjust DLM parameters.

What I was trying to say with my previous post to Alec is that just because a line isnt now showing any CRCs or Err/Secs it doesnt mean that the line is error free.  We also need to be looking at the Retransmission counters.... and I suspect that DLM will also be monitoring them too. 


ETR = Effective throughput Rate
LEFTR = Low Error Free Throughput Rate/Ratio
LEFTRS= Low Error Free Throughput Seconds




Quote
Even when pre-G.INP, my connection was on fastpath for DS & US, I saw a low level of FEC/RSCorr error correction.

Yes you are correct, DLM can and does indeed apply a low level of FEC protection without swinging into full Interleave and INP.
Im not G.INPed yet but you can clearly see from my R value (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm#R) that my line is using RS encoding on the upstream, but Im not Interleaved.

R:              0               16


Over the past decade we've got used to reading stats in a particular way and many forums (including here) got a bit loose with the term Interleaving when really we should have also been talking about Error Correction.  I've already mentioned several times in this thread that since the advent of G.INP its now more important than ever that we make the distinction between Interleaving, Error Correction and Error Protection because they are 3 separate things that can be applied independently.  In the past we lumped them all together because DLM used to switch them on at the same time.... whereas now the FTTC/NGA DLM doesnt.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Weaver on August 02, 2015, 08:06:57 PM
What is the unit of data that is considered lost/corrupted or successfully sent Kitz? A fixed-sized block? Small?

What is it that is retransmitted? The data or like harq?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on August 02, 2015, 11:42:29 PM
What is the unit of data that is considered lost/corrupted or successfully sent Kitz? A fixed-sized block? Small?
What is it that is retransmitted? The data or like harq?

Not sure sorry - not gone into it in that kind of depth.   I believe its more like TCP/IP (ARQ) than FEC (HARQ) in how it detects the error,  except the big difference is its done at the physical layer.

Quote
RTx is designed to protect the performance and stability of DSL systems in the presence of impulse noise. It encapsulates payloads into frames that are called data transmission unit (DTU), which are stored in a buffer after transmission. INP is achieved by retransmitting – upon request of the receiver – just those received DTUs that were received with errors.

link (http://www.ftw.at/research-innovation/publications/technical-reports/2011/ftw-techreport-118)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Weaver on August 02, 2015, 11:46:55 PM
@kitz - thanks very much for that.

I need to do some reading up on this.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Oldjim on August 04, 2015, 09:37:54 AM
Now 4th August and still no G.INP on new cab
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lcl00 on August 04, 2015, 10:14:23 AM
Just updating as well.  I'm on an old cabinet, but a new connection... still no G.INP as of 4 August!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on August 04, 2015, 11:31:57 AM
From what I understand, you might not get G.INP. It depends on whether DLM decides if you need it.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Oldjim on August 04, 2015, 11:35:45 AM
since my line is presently interleaved I would assume that I do need it
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on August 04, 2015, 11:38:11 AM
How many ES and CRCs are you getting with interleaving turned on?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Oldjim on August 04, 2015, 11:52:18 AM
This is from the router stats - uptime is 11 days for a PPPe connection (Plusnet profile change) and 19days since the start (no resync at all)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lcl00 on August 04, 2015, 12:35:33 PM
I also have interleaving applied (on both US and DS), which would indicate that I have a line which would benefit from G.INP.

Any further updates on a completion of the rollout?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on August 05, 2015, 11:16:10 AM
My connection went down for approximately 1 hour this morning, no fault mentioned on the service status for my area code either. A minute before the internet connection was restored I had a forced re-sync. No sign of any changes to max sync rate or anything else however. Throughout the downtime I had a VDSL2 signal, just nothing beyond that. I'm wondering, could it perhaps be a firmware change/update to the ECI cabinet? If so, perhaps it's one of the steps towards G.INP being supported? Probably not but I'm hopeful :P.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on August 05, 2015, 04:56:42 PM
It's odd Ixel my line had a resync RD1 at 15:23 and again the sync is way to high for my line and the low SNRM of 3.4dB tells me this, it's the second time this has happened since G.INP Mk2 don't know what to make of it  ???

EDIT it looks line my line was down for under 2 hours.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Enverex on August 07, 2015, 11:22:32 AM
Still not seeing G.INP on my line. Should they all be rolled out by this point?

Code: [Select]
xDSL
Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 8.2 6.1
Attenuation (dB) 25.4 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 11.9 6.6
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 29197 4852
Rate (Kbps) 24998 4885
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 114 143
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 0 38
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 8 12
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.1450 0.9341
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 6784 1336
D (interleaver depth) 4 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 123 78
N (RS codeword size) 123 156
Delay (msec) 0 0
INP (DMT symbol) 51.00 0.00
OH Frames 0 0
OH Frame Errors 0 363
RS Words 3747157272 3784687
RS Correctable Errors 2919023 4735
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 0 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 1188700652 0
Data Cells 337508933 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 0 303
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 25 25

Also, I'm currently using a Billion 8800NL and I swear it's worse than my old 620 for sync speeds. Does anyone know what is arguably the best VDSL modem money can buy and why?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: KIAB on August 07, 2015, 02:31:13 PM
Been a bit sloppy with firmware on my 8800NL, been about a year since it was last updated  :-[
Updated this morning to version 2.32e,  speed has jumped up another 4Mb :), & it seems more responsive,probabably won't last though.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on August 07, 2015, 05:31:46 PM
Still not seeing G.INP on my line. Should they all be rolled out by this point?

I (interleaver depth)   4   1

INP (DMT symbol)   51.00   0.00

When looking at you INP it's showing 51.00 downstream and 0.00 UP that looks like a G.INP Mk2 activated line to me  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Enverex on August 07, 2015, 09:12:00 PM
Shouldn't there also be a delay listed if that's true?

Also my speed has dropped lately rather than increased and my pings haven't decreased... so if G.INP has really been activated then I'm severely disappointed. :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on August 07, 2015, 09:26:23 PM
Shouldn't there also be a delay listed if that's true?

Also my speed has dropped lately rather than increased and my pings haven't decreased... so if G.INP has really been activated then I'm severely disappointed. :(

Yes there is a delay on you stats and it as shows Delay: 0 DS 0 US the same as most G.INP lines.
or fastpath line.

Now when i look at your SNRM you have got 2dB spare but for some reason your DS sync is capped you should have +5000 kbps extra on your current sync.

Thats why you have seen no increase in download sync.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Enverex on August 07, 2015, 10:11:15 PM
It's always been like that, it's actually gotten worse since G.INP was implemented. Potential sync was normally around 31Mb and my real sync was always around 26Mb. Then a good while ago my actual sync got stuck at exactly 20Mb (20000 on the dot) as if it was being artificially limited. After a few months it finally fixed itself but I've never exceeded 24999Kb (2.67MB/s actual download speed) since then. It's really annoying.

You mentioned fastpath. This line is heavily interleaved (or at least it used to be), does G.INP have its own fastpath/interleaving vs the normal part of the line or are you saying that this line doesn't appear to be interleaved at all anymore?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on August 07, 2015, 10:34:27 PM
does G.INP have its own fastpath/interleaving vs the normal part of the line or are you saying that this line doesn't appear to be interleaved at all anymore?

The way you can look at G.INP MK2 is the Downstream has very low interleaving  (2 - 16) and the Upstream is on Fastpath (interleaved 1) if that helps.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on August 08, 2015, 12:22:04 AM
Quote
INP (DMT symbol)   51.00   0.00

hmmmm...   that looks like the line has g.inp mk2 applied at cab level.

Quote
I'm currently using a Billion 8800NL

Do you have the latest g.inp firmware?


----
ETA
Sorry NS, just noticed that you also spotted the signs of  g.inp Mk2.
I think Enverex may need to check that he's upgraded to the g.inp f/w - see this thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15124.15.html).   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Enverex on August 08, 2015, 03:12:00 AM
The way you can look at G.INP MK2 is the Downstream has very low interleaving  (2 - 16) and the Upstream is on Fastpath (interleaved 1) if that helps.

I do remember interleaving being 64 or so before so that does appear to have dropped significantly.

Quote
INP (DMT symbol)   51.00   0.00

hmmmm...   that looks like the line has g.inp mk2 applied at cab level.

Quote
I'm currently using a Billion 8800NL

Do you have the latest g.inp firmware?


----
ETA
Sorry NS, just noticed that you also spotted the signs of  g.inp Mk2.
I think Enverex may need to check that he's upgraded to the g.inp f/w - see this thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15124.15.html).

Yeah, I upgraded the firmware about a week ago as I noticed my router was locking up every few days (it's not locked up since I updated).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: rhole on August 09, 2015, 10:58:09 AM
Hi all I've been monitoring the whole ECI G.INP situation only very loosely and I have a question for people who may know...

My FTTC line had a re-sync sometime this morning. I'm using an Unlocked ECI/r modem with astrokids firmware.  First ever re-sync since install 2 months ago.
The line has dropped from 75Mbit to 65Mbit and Interleaving has been applied.  I don't really know much of the commands in the terminal but I saw the following...

ActualInterleaveDelay=975 ActualImpulseNoiseProtection=30

But this really isn't my problem. What I want to know is it possible for my ECI Cab to have had G.INP rolled out to it?    I now cannot connect to the Internet properly.  The Modem is in Sync but the Router struggles to obtain a WAN connection.  Eventually it does and when I Speedtest/Ping it is all over the place.  I say I ping the BBC I get wildly varying responses all the way up to ~2000ms.   

Basically if G.INP has been enabled on my Cab is it possible that this unlocked ECI/r modem has not received the firmware update?   I think I read somewhere that I can get sync but the connection is a bag of crap.   The firmware on my ECI modem is v5.4.8.6.1.6

Just wan't to rule this out before I spend time on the phone.


Are there any ECI telnet commands to get some info for G.INP?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ejs on August 09, 2015, 11:43:35 AM
I'm not sure where the equivalent of the dsl_cpe_pipe.sh script is located in the ECI's filesystem, but the commands to check the configuration and status are:
lfcg - line feature config get
lfcs - line feature config set
lfsg - line feature status get

read upstream config:
dsl_cpe_pipe.sh lfcg 0

read downstream config:
dsl_cpe_pipe.sh lfcg 1

I'm not sure if the ECI modems or the HH5A have received a firmware update for upstream ReTx yet. That requires the VDSL firmware to be at least 5.7.x.x.x.x (the minimum firmware versions required are given in the driver source code, src/include/drv_dsl_cpe_device_vrx.h).

I think one of the issues Lantiq devices have had is that ReTx wasn't enabled in the configuration by default, so some of the firmware updates for devices have contained the same VDSL firmware versions, but with ReTx switched on. If lfcg reports bReTxEnable=0, then you might be able to enable downstream ReTx with the lfcs command:
dsl_cpe_pipe.sh lfcs 1 1 1 1 0 -1
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: rhole on August 12, 2015, 12:56:54 PM
Thanks for the commands. I ran the command the other day to enable it in the config. The script was in  /opt/lantiq/bin/dsl_cpe_pipe.sh on the ECI/r. But I don't know whats going on with my line.  So it resynced for the first time ever on the 9th and dropped to Interleave mode and down to 65Mbit. It forced a resync on config change after playing in the console and I got 67Mbit...

http://i.imgur.com/GiDWpsm.png (http://i.imgur.com/GiDWpsm.png)

Last night it resynced by itself and this morning is showing back on Fastpath and a 10Mbit improvement...

http://i.imgur.com/2HUyrs8.png (http://i.imgur.com/2HUyrs8.png)

..

I guess not anything to do with G.INP. But I didn't think DLMs acted so fast on line improvements?

Also. Although I am now synced at 76Mbit and I can confirm my pings have returned to fastpath latency I am locked at 60Mbit downstream.  Every speedtest I do is locked solid at 60 throughput. Almost as though it is still 'really' at 65ish sync.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ejs on August 12, 2015, 08:47:09 PM
It's difficult to work out exactly why your speed went down or up again, the lfsg command show should if G.INP a.k.a. ReTx is currently in use. Unfortunately, the driver ChangeLog file mentions a bug about the lfsg command not displaying the ReTx status correctly (fixed in driver version 4.14.4). Also if G.INP was in use, the total ActualImpulseNoiseProtection value should be quite big, around 40.0 which would be displayed as 400 (it's given in units of 0.1).

As for your speedtest results - perhaps your ISP has a copy of the IP profile number, which should update automatically, eventually.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Oldjim on August 19, 2015, 05:08:10 PM
Slightly off topic
My cab, which was a part of BD UK rollout and made live around the middle of June, but my 8800NL still doesn't show G.INP as being enabled.
Is there a possibility that the cab change has been made but that a router resync wasn't initiated or am I clutching at straws
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Oldjim on August 21, 2015, 09:02:33 AM
Just happened
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thinkbroadband.com%2Fping%2Fshare-thumb%2F40f24eb5329cddb5452a0dd67ce23bc2-21-08-2015.png&hash=5beb50108d898a3b4726d68c83b779e1)
Quote
Stats recorded 21 Aug 2015 08:59:07

DSLAM/MSAN type:           BDCM:0xa485 / v0xa485
Modem/router firmware:     AnnexA version - A2pv6F039g1.d24m
DSL mode:                  VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                    Showtime
Uptime:                    2 hours 13 min 1 sec
Resyncs:                   1 (since 16 Aug 2015 12:53:33)
         
            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     21.4      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not available on VDSL2      
Connection speed (kbps):   48446      10569
SNR margin (dB):           6.3      6.3
Power (dBm):               12.6      5.9
Interleave depth:          8      1
INP:                       48.00      0
G.INP:                     Enabled      
Speed increased from just over 43Mb to 48.4Mb
A significant improvement
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on August 21, 2015, 11:47:05 AM
Thats brilliant news OJ.   Glad that they finally got around to you  :thumbs: :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on August 21, 2015, 11:47:29 AM
I forgot to update this thread yesterday.   

We now have official confirmation from Openreach for most of the things that I'd been saying in this thread such as the catchups would occur after the G.INP Mk1 to G.INP Mk2 updates were complete, Huawei cab progress and some of the DLM behaviour and that g.inp would be re-enabled on the upstream if the DLM thought the line would benefit and it had compatible hardware.....

......plus some answers in a bit more depth about DLM.

The information direct from Openreach's Chief Engineer can be seen here :-  Openreach's implementation of G.INP / Retransmission (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ginp-retransmission.htm)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tommy45 on August 23, 2015, 03:10:36 PM
But I didn't think DLMs acted so fast on line improvements?
Well after switching  the Huawei modem for the ECI which worked fine for some 2 days then following DLM intervening left the ECI is a similar state IE appeared to have a sync but no PPPOE  session, and i could not connect.  the connection had been down for a few hrs before i was aware of it,
I changed the modem back to the huawei and after it obtained a sync PPPOE session was restored ,But it had G.inp removed  and interleave applied that was on the 4th august @7.58
On the 6th august @12.42 AM DLM increased sync a little and also interleaving
But again on the same day @6.48am  DLM restored G.inp
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lcl00 on August 23, 2015, 04:20:12 PM
Well... it finally happened.  DLM dropped the connection last night at 3AM, removed interleaving and applied G.INP.  I'm now up to 53722 on the downstream and 7030 on the upstream.  The 7030 looks a bit low given how high the downstream is, but I'm not really complaining.  The line is 1250m long and I never expected to see numbers like that on it!

ES went to zero and FECs plummeted.  I got about 7 ES during a thunderstorm, but the line didn't resync at all and remained solid throughout all of it.  Yay!
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on August 23, 2015, 04:28:56 PM
lcl00: what is your attenuation?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: lcl00 on August 23, 2015, 05:28:11 PM
AlecR:  The HG612 reports it as 21.9dB and the TG589vn v3 reports it at 16.9dB.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on August 23, 2015, 07:26:28 PM
AlecR:  The HG612 reports it as 21.9dB and the TG589vn v3 reports it at 16.9dB.

Gezz can't even get 40Mbps on a 1000m line and the attainable is 24.9dB
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on August 24, 2015, 11:06:30 AM
nothing to report here on ECI :p

31 days uptime

same sync speed.

fast path up/down. :)

By the way my guy in the know reports there is no g.inp configs rolled out yet to ECI cabinets, he said prior to hauwei rollout it was done some months before which suggests ECI users wont get g.inp in september also with october unlikely at this point.

Of course its possible these configs will get rolled out shortly before rollout, but I thought i would post this information.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on August 24, 2015, 11:08:07 AM
I suspect, if ECI does get a rollout at all, it will start being noticed by around or during Q1 2016. Perhaps sooner if we're lucky.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on August 24, 2015, 06:37:48 PM
Quote
he said prior to hauwei rollout it was done some months before which suggests ECI users wont get g.inp in september also with october unlikely at this point.

As per the first posts in this thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284195.html#msg284195).   The Huawei cabs started to get their upgrades the 2nd week in Jan. 
This usually involves 5-10 mins of downtime.  It was 14th of Jan when someone from this forum first noted the downtime.

It was the 7th of Feb when the first member actually had g.inp Mk1 applied to their line.

Quote
Of course its possible these configs will get rolled out shortly before rollout, but I thought i would post this information.

We've always said that stage 1 is rollout to the cabs and stage 2 is application to the line profile.... and that the same procedure would happen with the ECI's.   

The lack of people on here who are on ECI's reporting any downtime whilst the cabs are upgraded is how we knew that it hadn't started on the ECI's yet.   Openreach are highly unlikely to update the ECI cabs if some of the engineers hand-helds arent working properly to get stats from, once those cabs have been updated. :/
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on August 29, 2015, 09:48:59 AM
I've just had G.INP re-enabled on my upstream this morning.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on August 29, 2015, 12:38:17 PM
I've just had G.INP re-enabled on my upstream this morning.

I can understand why this happened to AlecR the US errored second count went upto 29000
My USpstream has also been G.INP enabled this morning and don't know why the US errored second count was at a low of 89 per day  :-\

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Captain Jack on September 29, 2015, 12:16:41 PM
How long does it usually take to get upgraded to G.INP following FTTC activation? It's been a couple of weeks now and I've had a stable line for over 10 days (no resyncs). I am on Huawei DSLAM using Billion 8800NL router, which supports G.INP.

Here are my stats:

Code: [Select]
> adsl info --vendor
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 8564 Kbps, Downstream rate = 48927 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 8564 Kbps, Downstream rate = 40821 Kbps

ChipSet Vendor Id:      BDCM:0xa48c
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xa48c
ChipSet SerialNumber:

 > adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 8564 Kbps, Downstream rate = 48943 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 8564 Kbps, Downstream rate = 40821 Kbps

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        5.6             5.9
Attn(dB):        22.2            0.0
Pwr(dBm):        11.9            2.8

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           18              26
B:              51              239
M:              1               1
T:              64              44
R:              12              0
S:              0.0405          0.8905
L:              12632           2156
D:              799             1
I:              64              120
N:              64              240
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: aruba on September 29, 2015, 03:43:27 PM
Anecdotally, it took at least 2-3 months on my line.

The first couple of months I was using a Billion 8800NL and G.INP was not showing as active.

For a period of two months I was using a router that didn't show G.INP.

I have now recently got a new router and G.INP is now active.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Captain Jack on September 29, 2015, 03:46:53 PM
Hm, I wonder if there's an issue with the Billion router working/activating G.INP? What new router did you get?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: aruba on September 29, 2015, 04:12:56 PM
It's a ZyXel VMG8324-B10A.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: AArdvark on September 29, 2015, 06:24:10 PM
Hm, I wonder if there's an issue with the Billion router working/activating G.INP? What new router did you get?
[On the assumption that your Router/modem supports G.INP]
It is not a router problem AFAIK but rather a case of having to wait for DLM to activate G.INP on your line.
DLM activates G.INP when it sees fit & equally can activate/deactivate G.INP on US when it wants as well.

Thee is no regulation timing for G.INP to appear.
You simply need to bide your time ..... it will come eventually.  ;D ;D
I had a huge wait because my line was reset and the existing G.INP 'disappeared' !!
I appeared to be picked up when OR checked for missing G.INP on the known lines that should have been enabled.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on November 04, 2015, 10:20:15 PM
Even I have come to the conclusion that the ECI cabinets won't be G.INP enabled we are now into November 2015, I just think this JDSU update is a red herring to stop ECI customers getting angry.

It's 5 months now since the huawei cabinets got this G.INP MK2 rollout my guess is if the ECI has not been enabled for G.INP by now it's never going to happen  :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on November 04, 2015, 11:02:35 PM
Even I have come to the conclusion that the ECI cabinets won't be G.INP enabled we are now into November 2015, I just think this JDSU update is a red herring to stop ECI customers getting angry.

It's 5 months now since the huawei cabinets got this G.INP MK2 rollout my guess is if the ECI has not been enabled for G.INP by now it's never going to happen  :(

All true sadly, I came to a similar conclusion about a month ago. ECI cabs are pretty much either second class or perhaps even a failed decision that's to be forgotten about quietly by BT Openreach :(. I'd love to see G.INP or some insight that it may one day come, but it looks like that's not going to happen. Probably the same will happen regarding vectoring (no vectoring that is) if BT do a nationwide rollout at a later date. All one can hope is that when G.fast is rolled out nationwide (I presume it will be in the future) that those unfortunate to be on ECI cabs are given a little priority to receive the option of the improved service sooner, if commercially viable of course.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on November 05, 2015, 02:50:33 AM
Depends how you see g.inp

Do you see it as free extra sync speed, or do you see it for its purpose of enhanced stability?

I dont know if g.fast will be any stabler than existing vdsl services as I assume BT will run it without spare margin to get max marketed speeds, in which case the only real advantage for stability is the copper loop may be shorter (if they deploy nodes away from cabinets) in which case a dodgy part of the ali/copper may be removed from the equation.

Also g.fast is nowhere near as mature as vdsl was when BT started rolling out vdsl, so the chipsets and firmware might have issues as well.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on November 05, 2015, 03:10:53 AM
also if they roll out on final distribution poles that should almost completely eliminate crosstalk because there wont be any copper bundles.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ktz392837 on November 05, 2015, 12:24:45 PM
I hope that support for ECI cabs is still being worked on.  Hopefully kitz or blacksheep have further information.  I will certainly kick up a fuss with CEO and Ofcom especially if they start advertising faster speeds when 30% of the network is on ECI cabs that are severely affected by not having GINP.  Do not get me started on forgiving OR taking 5 years to plug in my cabinet - rubbish cabinets and incompetent management - get it together!  I wish I was on the none commercial rollout - I would have a huweai cabinet and it would have been active years before my BT commercial rollout.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on November 05, 2015, 08:11:11 PM
I hope that support for ECI cabs is still being worked on.

So do i am just starting to lose patience at my end and i'm not even an ECI cab users the only thing G.INP is good for is stability my line never liked fastpath and when it was on fastpath it was always on the edge of the cliff for errored seconds even on the BT speed profile.

I'll wait another four months that should take us to february 2016.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on November 05, 2015, 08:28:32 PM
I would be pretty annoyed if I was on a interleaved line, so I do feel for those interleaved ECI users.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: toxic on November 18, 2015, 10:40:18 PM
 how do i tell what cabinet i am on and if G.INP is enabled on the line
running HG612 Firmwares [New H-Wolf version] but seem to get a slighty better sync on my talktalk router
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on November 18, 2015, 10:45:52 PM
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/cabinet-lookup.htm

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: toxic on November 18, 2015, 10:55:03 PM
Code: [Select]
DSLAM/MSAN type:           IFTN:0xb204 / v0xb204  should i still be using the HG612 FTTC
Modem/router firmware:     AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode:                  VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                    Showtime
Uptime:                    32 min 3 sec
Resyncs:                   0 (since 18 Nov 2015 22:22:09)
         
                           Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     22.1      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not monitored     
Connection speed (kbps):   33685      8621
SNR margin (dB):           6.3      6.2
Power (dBm):               12.2      6.2
Interleave depth:          659      1
INP:                       3.00      0
G.INP:                     Not enabled      nope

RSCorr/RS (%):             0.0088      0.0007
RSUnCorr/RS (%):           0.0001      0.0000
ES/hour:                   8.01      0


and thanks for ur quick reply and help

[Admin note: I've taken the liberty of putting those stats between code tags for better formatting]
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bowdon on January 16, 2016, 10:57:22 AM
STILL no news on G.INP for ECI cabinets.

I think someone in BT / OR needs to have a long hard look at this situation. I understand the need to not rely on only one cabinet supplier. But damn, lets say 50% of their cabinets can't support the technology they tried to rollout.

I have to also wonder if there was some technical reason why vectoring never got introduced too.

It'll be interesting if both cabinet makers can support G.fast. If ECI fail at that I can see a lot of complaints.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on January 16, 2016, 12:37:51 PM
Vectoring is probably a financial not technical decision.

They have made the business decision to roll out g.fast over the next few years to FTTC areas.  To maximise the take-up of those g.fast services they need the performance gap to be as wide as possible, vectoring would reduce that gap.  Also vectoring is potentially expensive if they only utilise per card vectoring which would require rearrangement of copper bundles to get optimal performance which in turn requires manpower.

I remember posting over a year ago I can forsee BT only rolling out new technologies to hauwei cabinets, only one person agreed with me and that was Ronski.  We both recognised BT have a thick skin when it comes to dealing with bad press or unhappy consumers and they wouldnt even flinch at the though of creating a 2 tier service based on cabinet lottery.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on January 16, 2016, 12:54:23 PM
I doubt we'll (anyone on ECI cabs) see G.INP or anything else for that matter, probably including g.fast unfortunately, anytime soon. It looks like ECI is just a lost cause to BT.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 16, 2016, 01:18:05 PM
Regrettably I have to agree. Another example of Openreach doing Retail's bidding.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: gt94sss2 on January 16, 2016, 02:12:45 PM
Regrettably I have to agree. Another example of Openreach doing Retail's bidding.

What has BT Retail got to do with this? Its Openreach's equipment which doesn't support G.INP etc.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bowdon on January 16, 2016, 09:04:55 PM
I can imagine if the ECI cabinets dont support G.fast there is going to be a public backlash. Seeing adverts offering these massive speed increases then people go to order and because they are on an ECI cabinet, people arent going to take it well.

I'm sure that will hit their shares too.

Though I will say that I wonder if the actual job of the cabinet will change when G.fast comes out, as it will really be a distribution hub to extend fibre lines out. I wonder if there will be any 'cards' (I'm using the word cards as I'm not sure of the technical terms for them) inside the cabinet if all its doing is acting as a pass-through for fibre cables to the pole.

Also does the sound/interfering come from the connection of copper to fibre? So if it was fibre to fibre then there wouldnt be the same interference?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on January 16, 2016, 10:37:01 PM
The cabinet cards will stay as the FTTC services will still exist.  Also that g.fast will be offered from cabinets and my guess is early on it will be a cabinet only service with possible extended DP's for g.fast added later.  But those DP's on poles will only have limited ports not enough to move all FTTC customers to.

A glimmer of hope may be that if they need to upgrade the cabinet ECI line cards for g.fast then the new cards may then support proper g.inp/vectoring.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bowdon on January 17, 2016, 12:00:30 AM
Does the interference that G.INP fixes comes from the copper connection in the cabinet? i.e. if it was a fibre to fibre connection then in theory there wouldnt be any need for G.INP?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: loonylion on January 17, 2016, 01:15:55 AM
Does the interference that G.INP fixes comes from the copper connection in the cabinet? i.e. if it was a fibre to fibre connection then in theory there wouldnt be any need for G.INP?

no it comes from the copper wires. even with g.fast from the dp it may still be needed to deal with interference picked up by the dropwire.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: gt94sss2 on January 17, 2016, 01:36:09 AM
I can imagine if the ECI cabinets dont support G.fast there is going to be a public backlash. Seeing adverts offering these massive speed increases then people go to order and because they are on an ECI cabinet, people arent going to take it well.

I'm sure that will hit their shares too.

Nice theory but I doubt it - for one thing BT has a pretty thick skin and their shareholders won't really care-in the scheme of things its financially immaterial. While other members of the public will be complaining that any faster service is available to others while they are still stuck on ADSL Max etc.

However, even BT have suggested some G.Fast cabinets will be situated next too existing FTTC ones - so if there is an issue enabling an existing one, they can simply put a G.Fast box next to it.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MrBelter on January 29, 2016, 10:19:39 AM
Hello, long time reader here  :)

My mate had Infinity installed on Wednesday and yesterday when i was turning off smart setup and splitting the SSIDs for him i couldn't believe that the engineer has given him a HH5 Type A and he is connected to a Huawei cab. It seems no one has learnt anything really.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: gt94sss2 on January 29, 2016, 08:38:15 PM
My mate had Infinity installed on Wednesday and yesterday when i was turning off smart setup and splitting the SSIDs for him i couldn't believe that the engineer has given him a HH5 Type A and he is connected to a Huawei cab. It seems no one has learnt anything really.

Some others may disagree but I believe the HH5A is capable of supporting downstream G.INP
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on January 29, 2016, 10:02:02 PM
Some others may disagree but I believe the HH5A is capable of supporting downstream G.INP

The HH5A does support downstream G.INP but not on the upstream that is why G.INP MK2 was rolled out to stop the DLM trying to activate G.INP on the upstream for all non US capable G.INP modems and so that's why we see the fastpath profile on the upstream to-day

After the G.INP MK2 rollout all modems capable or non capable modems the US G.INP is switched off as standard only when the capable US G.INP modem is having high errored seconds on the upstream G.INP will be active on the upstream for a few days and or when the errored seconds fall below the DLM profile.

Now I don't know what happens to the HH5A when the upstream errored seconds go's above the DLM profile does both DS and US go into interleave mode  :-\
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on January 29, 2016, 10:34:20 PM

The HH5A does support downstream G.INP but not on the upstream

How do you know this as it doesn't show any G.INP data?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on January 29, 2016, 10:52:31 PM

The HH5A does support downstream G.INP but not on the upstream

How do you know this as it doesn't show any G.INP data?


I think Openreach made it very clear when rolling out G.INP MK2 were the fault lies  ;)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: blue166 on January 30, 2016, 03:24:51 PM
I can imagine if the ECI cabinets dont support G.fast there is going to be a public backlash. Seeing adverts offering these massive speed increases then people go to order and because they are on an ECI cabinet, people arent going to take it well.

I'm sure that will hit their shares too.

Nice theory but I doubt it - for one thing BT has a pretty thick skin and their shareholders won't really care-in the scheme of things its financially immaterial. While other members of the public will be complaining that any faster service is available to others while they are still stuck on ADSL Max etc.

However, even BT have suggested some G.Fast cabinets will be situated next too existing FTTC ones - so if there is an issue enabling an existing one, they can simply put a G.Fast box next to it.

Has it been confirmed that ECI cabs are not compatible with G.FAST????
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: gt94sss2 on January 30, 2016, 03:45:31 PM
Has it been confirmed that ECI cabs are not compatible with G.FAST????

Not as far as I am aware and it shouldn't make any real difference even if they were.

BT/Openreach have suggested they could deploy G.Fast in a variety of different ways including:

- at (or under?) the FTTC cabinet;
- in a new cabinet next to a FTTC cabinet;
- at a DP (above or below ground)

If they find that one solution did not work with ECI cabinets, then they can adopt another.

One major advantage of installing G.Fast in or near an existing FTTC cabinet is the ease that power can be provided since most of the infrastructure is present.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: underzone on January 30, 2016, 08:23:11 PM
BT need to wise up and fast! They got excited saying:
Ooh look we provide you 40mbps (if you are within 200M of your cab).
Then 2 years later. Ooh look we can provide you 80mbps (if you are within 200M of your cab).
Next up is, ooh look you can now get 500mbps (if you are within 50m of your DP).

Get a grip. Fibre to each home needs rolling out now. No distance limitations and no more marketing BS.
Rip out the copper and sell it. That would pay for the FTTP install costs.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: gt94sss2 on January 30, 2016, 09:10:32 PM
Get a grip. Fibre to each home needs rolling out now. No distance limitations and no more marketing BS.
Rip out the copper and sell it. That would pay for the FTTP install costs.

Off-topic for this thread but imo the bit in bold is ludicrous and causes you to lose all credibility
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: underzone on January 30, 2016, 09:41:15 PM
Are you sure of that?

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/sep/23/bt-copper-assets (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/sep/23/bt-copper-assets)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: gt94sss2 on January 30, 2016, 09:49:38 PM
Are you sure of that?

Yes, thanks. Even if you ignore the sharp fall (over 50%) in the spot price of copper since 2011 or that scrap copper sells for much less than you copper, you seem to have missed the footnote added to the Guardian article:

This footnote was added on 27 September 2011: As noted by the blog's author in the comments below, Investec later issued a recalculation reducing the estimated value of BT's copper substantially:

Following the revelations of last week's The Register article, attributing a value of £50bn to BT's copper, BT took another look at the methodology used to calculate that value. The 75m miles of cable used in the calculation is correct, but relates to single twisted pairs (not 10-pair cable). Furthermore, the weight of the cable used to deduce the tonnage included the plastic sheathing material. All told then, BT is probably sitting on somewhere between £2.5bn to £5bn of copper...not the £50bn the article had suggested. This is still material (especially in the context of the current fibre rollout which should see 66% of the country receiving much faster broadband speeds, and costing...£2.5bn), but is not quite the magnitude of revelation we had previously been led to believe.


Now, I don't know how much you think FTTP will cost to install but its going to be a lot more than £2.5-5bn.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on January 30, 2016, 10:53:04 PM
That's enough off-topic discussion, thank you.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on January 31, 2016, 12:33:38 AM
Hello, long time reader here  :)

My mate had Infinity installed on Wednesday and yesterday when i was turning off smart setup and splitting the SSIDs for him i couldn't believe that the engineer has given him a HH5 Type A and he is connected to a Huawei cab. It seems no one has learnt anything really.

Hello and welcome :)

My daughter recently moved home and had fttc installed in Oct.  The Openreach engineer supplied them with an ECI modem.  (She is on a Huawei cab).
 
She seems more than happy with her speeds which she says were better than VM at her last house.   Bearing in mind she will be moving again soon, Im not bothering to say or do anything.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MrBelter on February 04, 2016, 09:27:41 AM
My mate had Infinity installed on Wednesday and yesterday when i was turning off smart setup and splitting the SSIDs for him i couldn't believe that the engineer has given him a HH5 Type A and he is connected to a Huawei cab. It seems no one has learnt anything really.

Some others may disagree but I believe the HH5A is capable of supporting downstream G.INP

Whether it does or it doesn't you would have thought they would have been supplying type b as a matter of course by now.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: MrBelter on February 04, 2016, 09:29:32 AM
Hello, long time reader here  :)

My mate had Infinity installed on Wednesday and yesterday when i was turning off smart setup and splitting the SSIDs for him i couldn't believe that the engineer has given him a HH5 Type A and he is connected to a Huawei cab. It seems no one has learnt anything really.

Hello and welcome :)

My daughter recently moved home and had fttc installed in Oct.  The Openreach engineer supplied them with an ECI modem.  (She is on a Huawei cab).
 
She seems more than happy with her speeds which she says were better than VM at her last house.   Bearing in mind she will be moving again soon, Im not bothering to say or do anything.

Hi Kits, his speeds are great, no issues at all, it just seems daft that BT are supplying a router that they know is not fully compatible with even current technologies.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: gt94sss2 on February 04, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Whether it does or it doesn't you would have thought they would have been supplying type b as a matter of course by now.

The reason BT quote for having 2 different versions of the Home Hub 5 is that they needed more than one manufacturer to keep up with demand - not that the functionality between the two is different (though they do use different chipsets).

Some earlier versions of the Home Hub also had A and B versions made by different manufacturers.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: PhilipD on March 23, 2016, 09:08:12 AM
Hi

I take it G.INP is all go on ECI cabinets now?

After my line dropped and came back, on my XyXEL 8924 it reports:

Code: [Select]
RxQueue:                42              0
TxQueue:                14              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         14              0
RRC bits:               0               24

And further down the stats:

Code: [Select]
                        Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx:         10              0
rtx_c:          2               0
rtx_uc:         0               0

                        G.INP Counters
LEFTRS:         0               0
minEFTR:        79982           0
errFreeBits:    766157          0

Vendor details:
Code: [Select]
ChipSet Vendor Id:      IFTN:0xb204
ChipSet VersionNumber:  0xb204
ChipSet SerialNumber:   5502215529

Regards

Phil
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ixel on March 23, 2016, 09:43:21 AM
That's good news. Yeah, there's been another thread about this in the FTTC issues section. I thought it was for only those cabinets upgraded to version 0xb206, as I'm still on 0xb204 this pleases me to hear this and can't wait to see it go live on my line, if it hasn't already that is :).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 08, 2016, 08:35:10 PM
@Ixel  I couldn't wait either but I was enabled yesterday and it didn't go well I'm on a ECI cab with a Openreach ECI modem and my latency increased and i lost around 4Mb of speed, I can only guess that the Openreach modems are still not G.INP compatible although i'm still trying to get a definite answer for that as it's been a year since the Huawei updates etc

but it currently looks like i may have to get new gear to replace the Openreach stuff :(
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 08:36:18 PM
for those who it hasnt gone well please dont report a fault :p until I have been moved over incase they suspend it.

Terranova it really sounds like you are on the fallback interleaving profile, when g.inp is activated, there is no longer fast path profiles, if a device is deemed incompatible or line is not stable enough then it will go to interleaving.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 08, 2016, 08:57:52 PM
@chrysalis I was confirmed by Plusnet today G.INP enabled as my profile states here 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

so it's not gone to a interleaving profile i'm not sure what's going on hence why i asked if the Openreach ECI modem was still not compatible even with the change Openreach did during the Huawei cab rollout because it looks like what happened when ECI modems were on the Huawei cabs during the first roll out even though i'm on a ECI cab with the ECI modem. 

as is say i don't know what's going on and with the Openreach modem locked down i can't get stats and no other Modem at hand either and i cant afford to spend money needlessly to find out.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 08, 2016, 09:19:04 PM
for those who it hasnt gone well please dont report a fault :p until I have been moved over incase they suspend it.
Oops too late
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ip75 on April 08, 2016, 09:24:37 PM
I think the problem here is that you're using an ECI modem, and you have G.INP enabled on the *upstream*. ECI modems don't support this, if I recall?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 08, 2016, 09:27:15 PM
G.INP is not enabled upstream.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ip75 on April 08, 2016, 09:29:44 PM
@chrysalis I was confirmed by Plusnet today G.INP enabled as my profile states here 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

That means it is, doesn't it?

Edit: sorry, misread it. The retransmission bit refers to downstream. As you were.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 09:38:15 PM
@chrysalis I was confirmed by Plusnet today G.INP enabled as my profile states here 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

did they tell you the upstream profile.

Your data points to interleaving somewhere.

I have forgotten what they did on hauwei for this, I think they are on hauwei -> eci allowed fast path still on the upstream, but I believe you have to wait and it doesnt go instantly to fast path.  I am definitely not sure on this and someone who know's more, should confirm.  I stopped following eci changes sometime last year and only took interest again after this eci rollout started.

--edit--

Thinking about it a bit more and not going to MDWS to check, I think g.inp ended up been one way for everyone due to the ECI modem issues.  With a interleaved profile been default but then moving to fast path if the upstream is stable.

Personally I wouldnt be relying on those GEA reports alone, you need to see raw connection stats from the modem.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 08, 2016, 09:59:00 PM
for those who it hasnt gone well please dont report a fault :p until I have been moved over incase they suspend it.

Have not seen any new G.INP Rollouts to ECI users this week could they have halted it ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 08, 2016, 10:11:50 PM
@Newtronstar i was enabled yesterday so no they haven't halted it

@Chrysalis my Upstream profile is listed 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off  the downstream is the one with G.INP enabled 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low  so only one way on ECI as it should be.

as for Interleaving i cant see where it's being applied your right about not solely relying on the GEA but with it being the Openreach ECI modem i have no way of getting stats from it I don't have the skills or the equipment to unlock it to find out what's going on, and no other modem to hand to find out either.

all i know is when it was enabled my latency increased and i lost some down speed like it was with the first hauwei roll out before the openreach change was put in place yet i'm on a ECI cab with the Openreach ECI modem . i dunno it's all a little weird  ???
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 08, 2016, 10:12:05 PM
Bob Pullen has indicated they have
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 10:17:29 PM
Bob Pullen has indicated they have

halted?

There is still people on MDWS getting activated, 2 have even been done this evening.

Ok they not new activations, they both lines that look like they have been down for a number of days and they triggered the alerts.

So sods law I guess I may be a victim of a halt?  Where is the link to the plusnet post?  I guess like newt was I could be waiting for a while now then.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 08, 2016, 10:23:48 PM
https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/G-INP-suddenly-gone-from-line/m-p/1324362#M36706
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 10:25:58 PM
yeah just found that post.

Isnt it annoying when people are cryptic, what kind of post is that from Bob.

I agree it certainly seems to indicate a possible rollback or halt, but it may well have only been on that line.

xhemp the wed activation looks like another new user as well.

So this rollout ground to a halt then?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 08, 2016, 10:28:57 PM
I read that post by Bob he hasn't said the roll out has halted,  my line was enabled yesterday but he could be suggesting that maybe Openrech is disabling it on ECI that had it enabled so i have asked him for clarification, but that said why would Openreach enable my line yesterday if they think something is amiss.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 10:30:53 PM
and what is your username on mdws terra? I want to be sure you actually was activated then and not before.

last migration I see is 31 march.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 08, 2016, 10:44:53 PM
@chrysalis I'm not on mdws i'm using a Openreach ECI modem which is locked i have no means to get stats so no point in using it.

my post on plusnet is here if you want to take a look i reported the IP profile drop and increased latency yesterday with plusnet responding and confirming G.INP enabled today.   

https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/IP-Profile-Drop-on-the-download/td-p/1323625

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 10:47:41 PM
I seen it.

They havent told you the date you was put on g.inp, they just told you that you on g.inp.  You could have been on g.inp for weeks without knowing.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 08, 2016, 10:52:05 PM
I just hope the ECI G.INP rollout is not halted as it kind of the same situation we had back in the end of April 2015 most people were seeing excellent results with G.INP on the Huawei cabinet and some were seeing a degraded service that was all down to the modem they were using and we had to wait for 3 months  for this G.INP MK2 and guess what it was neutered on the upstream a big mistake for all.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tbailey2 on April 08, 2016, 10:59:50 PM
for those who it hasnt gone well please dont report a fault :p until I have been moved over incase they suspend it.

Have not seen any new G.INP Rollouts to ECI users this week could they have halted it ?

Wj66 and les-70 on 5th, plus some new users more recently who are on ECI cabs.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 11:00:45 PM
its either halted or had the handbrake put on.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 11:01:28 PM
for those who it hasnt gone well please dont report a fault :p until I have been moved over incase they suspend it.

Have not seen any new G.INP Rollouts to ECI users this week could they have halted it ?

Wj66 and les-70 on 5th, plus some new users more recently who are on ECI cabs.

I checked wj66, can you explain why his data is all blank before g.inp alert?

To me looks like new user as before the g.inp alert he has no data.

Les was down from middle march up until the alert.  So how do we know he wasnot activated between those dates?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 08, 2016, 11:04:53 PM
I seen it.

They havent told you the date you was put on g.inp, they just told you that you on g.inp.  You could have been on g.inp for weeks without knowing.

hmm But my connection didn't change until yesterday it had been the same as it was for 6 months up until that point i would have seen the change before then one way or another as i did yesterday if it were enabled earlier wouldn't I ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 11:08:02 PM
Well you dont know because you wasnt monitoring it.

You have just made a guess your latency increase is down to a g.inp activation at the same time.

g.inp shouldnt cause the changes you reported.

ask plusnet for the line history, and specifically when g.inp was activated.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 08, 2016, 11:29:11 PM
i lost some download speed as well it's not just a latency increase and i check my TBB graph and Speed on a daily basis so i know if something changes, as i said nothing had changed for 6 months up until yesterday, your right G.INP shouldn't cause the changes but then openreach didn't even know the Huawei roll out would initially be a problem who's to say the ECI hasn't turned out the same if what Bob on plusnet maybe eluding to.

but i will ask Plusnet for the date see if it was indeed yesterday.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2016, 11:59:03 PM
yeah I understand it does seem likely, just would be nice to be sure. :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 09, 2016, 12:19:46 AM
yeah I understand it does seem likely, just would be nice to be sure. :)

Chrysalis even if vectoring was turned on tomorrow you would find users complaining about loss of sync rate and higher pings Openreach must take a stand here you either update your hardware or fall behind, is that not the same situation with MS or when using an old graphics card for gaming

The ECI and HG612 modems are 4-5 years old that is old technology these days yes it will work but at a slower rate.

All ISP's should be giving us at least a BCM63168 as standard or better 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on April 09, 2016, 12:22:06 AM
I am going to make a suggestion (and please don't quote it in other fora as a fact) that perhaps a firmware update is to be rolled out to either the ECI B-FOCuS V-2FUb/r Rev. B modems or the ECI Hi-FOCuS M41 Mini-Shelf MSAMs.  ;)

In the words of Lance Corporal Jones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Corporal_Jones): "Don't panic!".
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 09, 2016, 12:38:45 AM
thanks burakkucat

newt yeah, they could have done that if they didnt let end users and isps supply their own modems.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 09, 2016, 07:25:46 AM
I am going to make a suggestion (and please don't quote it in other fora as a fact) that perhaps a firmware update is to be rolled out to either the ECI B-FOCuS V-2FUb/r Rev. B modems or the ECI Hi-FOCuS M41 Mini-Shelf MSAMs.  ;)

In the words of Lance Corporal Jones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Corporal_Jones): "Don't panic!".
You mean an ECI cab version of G.INP mk 2 - identify the devices that don't support it and turn it off for them?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tbailey2 on April 09, 2016, 08:12:59 AM
Bob Pullen has indicated they have

halted?

There is still people on MDWS getting activated, 2 have even been done this evening.

Ok they not new activations, they both lines that look like they have been down for a number of days and they triggered the alerts.

So sods law I guess I may be a victim of a halt?  Where is the link to the plusnet post?  I guess like newt was I could be waiting for a while now then.

Only one of those two (spotter) was ECI with G.INP and he was a NEW user so no previous stats - his last resync was 17 hours prior to first stats.
On Wednesday, xhemp registered for ECI and has G.INP but no previous stats. His last resync  was 93 hours prior to registration.

But there were two new ECI/G.INP activations on Tuesday from existing users as posted elsewhere.

There are only 30 ECI users on MDWS at the moment, and only five of those don't yet have ECI with another one currently deactivated. Not sure that's a reliable basis for evaluating whether it has been delayed or stopped?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 09, 2016, 10:13:25 AM
I posted this last night in another thread that Bob Pullen over on Plusnet said that Openreach were turning off G.INP on some ECI lines that were already enabled even if it was working ok, I asked him why and he seems to suggest it hasn't worked out as planned so burakkucat could indeed be right in thinking a update of sorts be it modem or cab could be on it's way  :fingers:   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 09, 2016, 10:27:47 AM
yeah I understand it does seem likely, just would be nice to be sure. :)

Chrysalis even if vectoring was turned on tomorrow you would find users complaining about loss of sync rate and higher pings Openreach must take a stand here you either update your hardware or fall behind, is that not the same situation with MS or when using an old graphics card for gaming

The ECI and HG612 modems are 4-5 years old that is old technology these days yes it will work but at a slower rate.

All ISP's should be giving us at least a BCM63168 as standard or better

I get what your saying but if you don't choose to update the OS or graphics card your not losing anything your PC doesn't all of a sudden loose some of it's processing power etc you just don't gain the benefits that the newer OS / Graphics card offers, with what Openreach has done some end users like myself are loosing some speed and gaining latency if it simply didn't effect anything and you had to upgrade to gain the benefits then i doubt there would be much of a problem but that's not the case.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 09, 2016, 12:28:42 PM
Openreach were turning off G.INP on some ECI lines that were already enabled even if it was working ok,

From what I can gather, the roll-out hasn't been completely suspended.   
It appears some lines could be susceptible to a fault that looks suspiciously like the ECI modem - Issue 1 problem (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284199.html#post_ECI_modem_issue1).

I have a bit more info,  which Ive posted here:- G.INP rollout 2016 - ECI cabs (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,17446.0.html)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 09, 2016, 01:05:30 PM
Bob Pullen has indicated they have

halted?

There is still people on MDWS getting activated, 2 have even been done this evening.

Ok they not new activations, they both lines that look like they have been down for a number of days and they triggered the alerts.

So sods law I guess I may be a victim of a halt?  Where is the link to the plusnet post?  I guess like newt was I could be waiting for a while now then.

Only one of those two (spotter) was ECI with G.INP and he was a NEW user so no previous stats - his last resync was 17 hours prior to first stats.
On Wednesday, xhemp registered for ECI and has G.INP but no previous stats. His last resync  was 93 hours prior to registration.

But there were two new ECI/G.INP activations on Tuesday from existing users as posted elsewhere.

There are only 30 ECI users on MDWS at the moment, and only five of those don't yet have ECI with another one currently deactivated. Not sure that's a reliable basis for evaluating whether it has been delayed or stopped?

ok thanks, hoping I have got this wrong then.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 09, 2016, 01:38:42 PM
Openreach were turning off G.INP on some ECI lines that were already enabled even if it was working ok,

From what I can gather, the roll-out hasn't been completely suspended.   
It appears some lines could be susceptible to a fault that looks suspiciously like the ECI modem - Issue 1 problem (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284199.html#post_ECI_modem_issue1).

I have a bit more info,  which Ive posted here:- G.INP rollout 2016 - ECI cabs (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,17446.0.html)

Hi kitz

I have lost g.inp on my billion 8800nl connected to an eci cab after 10 days of what appeared to a fairly stable connection. Not able to get any info from Sky as gave them a call earlier. Back to delay and high interleave

Cheers
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 09, 2016, 02:09:16 PM
Hi skyeci

Im really sorry, but Im miles behind with looking at stats as I've had other things on this week, but what does your line card report?

Quote
DSLAM/MSAN type:           IFTN:0xb204 / v0xb204



----
For others.
Also important to note that DLM resets now trigger interleave by default.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 09, 2016, 02:27:32 PM
Its a 206 version.
Cheers
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Terranova667 on April 10, 2016, 04:44:10 PM
I had a reset last night about 1am, IP profile has risen back up to 46Mb and latency has dropped back down to it's normal 13-15ms It could well be that G.INP has been turned off on my line as Bob on the Plusnet forum said was happening Or Openreach already has a fix i dunno,  I can't confirm if G.INP is off until tomorrow when the Plusnet staff are around to check. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 12, 2016, 10:56:52 AM
I was reset on my ECI cab some 5 days ago and lost G.INP. It was working great for me with a download increase of some 6-7Mbps and it halved my ping.
Not sure if it was the HH5A I put on to prove to PN that my SBG3300-N was working fine as my upload speed is below the FTTC A range, the connection was not stable at all on the HH5A or if G.INP has just been switched off. Any way to find out?
I'm now using a Nighthawk D7000 which seems rock solid as I wanted the 5GHz wireless.
Ironically my max speed was 52Mbps until OR visited yesterday and did a DLM reset, it suddenly dropped to 47Mbps and was down as far as 45Mbps yesterday and that's with zero interleaving when interleaving was on the line at 52Mbps, OR basically made my line worse and left after 6.5 hours of wasted time.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 12, 2016, 01:06:25 PM
Can I clarify when you say reset some days ago - do you mean g.INP was removed or if that was when the engineer did the reset.

AFAIK, they didn't begin rolling back G.INP until last Thursday (7th).   When did things become problematic and when did you put the HH5A on the line.   

Quote
or if G.INP has just been switched off. Any way to find out?
1) Ask PN if they will do a GEA service test
- See How can I tell if G.INP / Retransmission has been applied to my line? (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/retransmission.htm#retransmission-enabled)

2) I note you say you are currently using a D7000, but also have an SBG3300.   
Both of these routers - certainly the SBG3300 - should give you telnet access to the BCM shell to find out in depth information about your line.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 12, 2016, 01:51:05 PM
Hi Kitz,

No the internet dropped and G.INP vanished. I had the reset yesterday 11/04/15 which made matters even worse.

Looking back through my info it seems G.INP turned off at around 5am on 08/04/16.

I used dslstats on the SBG3300-N and now on the D7000, no one from OR I've ever had out can understand any of the information it gives, either that or they just don't admit it .
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 12, 2016, 02:17:54 PM
Sorry if Im missing something, but Im trying to figure out a timescale of what was happening with your line

What Ive managed to piece together is:-   



Have I got this right?

When did you put the D7000 on?   
- Wondering if the loss of some speed could have come from change between the Zyxel & Netgear...  and I suspect without a doubt there will have been differences in line rate between the Zyxel and the HH5A.




Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 12, 2016, 03:15:22 PM
Quote
I used dslstats

PS can you do me a favour please.  From the Stats tab in DSLstats can you post what it says for this bit

Code: [Select]
DSLAM/MSAN type:        IFTN:0xb204 / v0xb204
TIA
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 12, 2016, 04:27:53 PM
Kitz,

This is what happened:

* Up until the 7th G.INP was running fine and had given an increase in sync speed of 6-7 Mbps
* I'd been seeing very low upload speeds below the FTTC A Low level and as PN have been looking at it for some 2.1/2 months I put the HH5A on to prove it wasn't the SBG3300-N, the HH5A actually dropped my upload a further 1Mbps. G.INP had been happily running on the SBG3300-N for around a week and again for about 6 days on the HH5A.
* Around a week after putting the HH5A on at 5am on the 8th - G.INP was removed from my line.  Line rate was 52 Mbps before with interleaving and the same after G.INP was applied. Connection rate was around 44-45Mbps with interleaving, with G.INP it was 51Mbps. Line rate was always at 52Mbps and remained that way until the DLM reset on the 11/04/16.
* HH5A was constantly rebooting but it did not affect the line rate. The HH5A has always done this on my line, when I was on Infinity it did it sometimes 4 times per hour. Hence I bought the SBG3300-N.
* The D7000 was put on my line on 08/04/16 and my line rate was still 52Mbps.
* I've had an open ticket for upload and sudden sporadic SNR fluctuation in the evenings open with PN since the beginning of Feb 2016.
* The OR visit on 11/04/16 was because the upload speed was low, after a DLM reset my line speed has dropped, currently at 47Mbps but I expect it to drop further this evening as it did yesterday and more once interleaving kicks in.
* Upload is slightly worse, download speed was very unstable on every PN gateway last night but seems more stable today but line rate on the download is far worse after DLM reset.

Finally:

DSLAM/MSAN type:           IFTN:0xd086 / v0xd086

Hope this helps, if not fire away  ;D
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 15, 2016, 06:08:03 PM
Does anyone on an ECI cabinet still have working G.INP out of interest?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 15, 2016, 06:20:28 PM
Yes there are a fair few on mywebstats still enabled and dont appear to be losing it just yet. Considering I lost mine on the 8th I am not convinced its suspended yet as the others are still enabled which seems a bit odd to me.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ronski on April 15, 2016, 06:50:43 PM
Does anyone on an ECI cabinet still have working G.INP out of interest?

I still have it on two separate lines on different cabinets and exchanges, and as skyeci states there are plenty of other users who still have.

It wasn't totally withdrawn, that's why some users still have it and some don't.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 15, 2016, 07:02:29 PM
Hi Kitz,

No the internet dropped and G.INP vanished. I had the reset yesterday 11/04/15 which made matters even worse.

Looking back through my info it seems G.INP turned off at around 5am on 08/04/16.

I used dslstats on the SBG3300-N and now on the D7000, no one from OR I've ever had out can understand any of the information it gives, either that or they just don't admit it .

My G.INP was turned off on the same day as yours just a bit later.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 15, 2016, 07:18:32 PM
If you remember back when G.INP Mk1 was halted on Huawei cabs no one lost G.INP unless their lines were reset by an engineer or they changed ISP which had a different DLM profile IE SPEED to STANDARD
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 15, 2016, 07:21:17 PM
Mine wasnt reset or an engineer visit or ISP  change. 10 days after activation a resync followed around 6:30am and it was disabled. Sky none the wiser...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 15, 2016, 07:49:43 PM
Mine wasnt reset or an engineer visit or ISP  change. 10 days after activation a resync followed around 6:30am and it was disabled. Sky none the wiser...

Thats because you must on one of those cabinets who are directly effectd by the ECI G.INP rollout issue
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 15, 2016, 08:07:55 PM
Mine wasnt reset or an engineer visit or ISP  change. 10 days after activation a resync followed around 6:30am and it was disabled. Sky none the wiser...

Thats because you must on one of those cabinets who are directly effectd by the ECI G.INP rollout issue

Possibly but other "206" users are still g.inp enabled  with no problem it would appear. I have been checking on mydsl and its still 6 not enabled and 2 disabled being me and another but no others switched off yet...

the other is on sky as well - I wonder....
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on April 15, 2016, 08:31:29 PM
Possibly but other "206" users are still g.inp enabled  with no problem it would appear.

It's definitely a head scratcher did you at some point call your ISP and tell them you had issues with G.INP on your line ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: broadstairs on April 15, 2016, 10:07:38 PM
Mine is still enabled....

Stuart
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 15, 2016, 10:08:34 PM
 I called sky to ask if they knew why I had lost g.inp and the pro team support agent knew nothing about it and said he had not any communications about it either.....
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 15, 2016, 10:23:48 PM
Can't see why Sky would know anything about G.INP to be honest, it's really part of the local loop.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 15, 2016, 10:40:39 PM
Can't see why Sky would know anything about G.INP to be honest, it's really part of the local loop.

Well I guess if Sky is a customer of OR you would think OR might advise their customers of  a fairly major network change that in turn may affect sky customers...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 16, 2016, 12:34:33 AM
Does anyone on an ECI cabinet still have working G.INP out of interest?

yes plenty, its us with non working that are the minority, and only two of us on here who didnt have it at all.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 16, 2016, 12:40:58 AM
Yes there are a fair few on mywebstats still enabled and dont appear to be losing it just yet. Considering I lost mine on the 8th I am not convinced its suspended yet as the others are still enabled which seems a bit odd to me.

its suspended, kitz's contact has cofirmed and BS.  Its also apparent in the halt of new lines getting it.  The only unknown here is what is the pattern of end users who have been blocked from having it enabled.  I have funny enough been suspecting if its down to specific isp's requesting it aka sky.

Dray still has it enabled on sky tho.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 16, 2016, 10:14:28 AM
yes plenty, its us with non working that are the minority, and only two of us on here who didnt have it at all.

Strange, PlusNet didn't seem to know I had G.INP on my line at all. I do not understand why it has been stopped when it was working very well for me, having said that OR managed to make my line worse after just a reset so nothing they do amazes me.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 16, 2016, 10:29:57 AM
could be an issue with your exchange or cabinet perhaps. I lost it too when things seemed good so can only assume the cabinet or exchange or other users on my cab were having issues perhaps?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 16, 2016, 08:16:53 PM
well both of you guys raised faults whilst it was activated right?

So one of the criteria might be "anyone" who raised a fault, turn it off.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on April 16, 2016, 08:49:14 PM
I only raised a query as to why it was switched off after it got disabled. Basically they had no idea. I was told they had no briefing on it.....
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 16, 2016, 08:49:56 PM
So what was that engineer visit you had for then?  As that was whilst you was g.inp enabled.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 16, 2016, 08:51:47 PM
well both of you guys raised faults whilst it was activated right?

My fault was logged 2 months before G.INP was switched on though.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 16, 2016, 08:53:14 PM
well both of you guys raised faults whilst it was activated right?

My fault was logged 2 months before G.INP was switched on though.

ok fair enough, I am just speculating there may be a link between faults that were active during the g.inp period and the lines been deactivated.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 16, 2016, 08:59:10 PM
Forgot to say and just to make totally clear, G.INP dropped from my line before the DLM reset was carried out too.

It's all very cloak and dagger, OR really need to be more transparent with paying clients. It's not like they have any competition forcing them to keep things quiet.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 16, 2016, 09:02:18 PM
Sadly we are not their direct customers, they probably have provided information to the CP's.  But the CP's are witholding the information either due to NDA or their own doing.

I agree with you its wrong but this is the situation we have now with the current market structure.

I suspect they keep quiet as to remove liability for when things go wrong. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 17, 2016, 12:16:24 PM
Very true we are not direct clients but our ISP's are. The ISP's have a right to know what is planned and in turn so are we from our ISP's.

Utopian I know and we are talking about OR here, who let's face it aren't at all forthcoming due to the monopoly they have.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: CarlT on April 17, 2016, 12:50:11 PM
Very true we are not direct clients but our ISP's are. The ISP's have a right to know what is planned and in turn so are we from our ISP's.

Utopian I know and we are talking about OR here, who let's face it aren't at all forthcoming due to the monopoly they have.

Openreach are generally transparent with their direct customers, BTWholesale, TalkTalk, Sky, etc. Ofcom would string them up if they weren't.

You have no right to know what is planned and no right to information Openreach give their customers in confidence. You have the right to be provided the service your provider contracted to provide you.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: CarlT on April 17, 2016, 12:53:56 PM
Sadly we are not their direct customers, they probably have provided information to the CP's.  But the CP's are witholding the information either due to NDA or their own doing.

I agree with you its wrong but this is the situation we have now with the current market structure.

It's not wrong at all. Virgin Media don't give updates on all their trials to the customer base either.

It's none of your, or my, business what Openreach are doing with regards to G.inp. If our services are working as contracted we've no recourse.

Should Virgin Media be notifying customers when they test new CMTS, channel plans, modulation schemes, bonding groups, etc?

I could happily tell the people in this local area how many upstream and downstream channels are in use, the equipment that sources those downstream channels and receives those upstream channels, when the architecture is planned to go full CCAP, the local network frequency ranges, subsplit, and how many homes passed per node the network was built with.

Do normal customers have a 'right' to know this? Does it matter as long as they are receiving the service as advertised?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ronski on April 17, 2016, 05:42:06 PM
I think that if customers are actually on a trial then they have a right to know, otherwise no we don't have a right to know.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 17, 2016, 05:57:00 PM
Very true we are not direct clients but our ISP's are. The ISP's have a right to know what is planned and in turn so are we from our ISP's.

Utopian I know and we are talking about OR here, who let's face it aren't at all forthcoming due to the monopoly they have.

Openreach are generally transparent with their direct customers, BTWholesale, TalkTalk, Sky, etc. Ofcom would string them up if they weren't.

You have no right to know what is planned and no right to information Openreach give their customers in confidence. You have the right to be provided the service your provider contracted to provide you.

you contradict yourself ignition.

In term's of the relationship between openreach and their customer's and the isp with their customer's there should be no difference.

Meaning if ofcom obliges openreach to inform isp's of trial's, the areas, the customers affected and so forth, then surely the isp has to have the same obligation with their own customers.  Yes this doesnt mean they should have to post full reports of all trial's but they should be obligated to contact the customers directly affected by trials.  Otherwise this is a double standard.

Also I dont see anything in the major isp's t&c's about allowing them to run speculative trial's of experimental services on their customer lines without notice.

I think there is 2 factors here allowing this to happen, the artificial strcuture which separates openreach from the end user, this makes it very difficult for any legal challenge to take place.  e.g. what if openreach have told the isp's they under NDA and as such enforcing them to not tell their own customer's, this NDA would be what needed challenging but because end user's have no contract with openreach they couldnt make such a challenge.  In that case it would be the isp's agreeing to terms which make their own contracts illegal that need challenging.

There is also the matter of 'best effort'.  Best effort generally means anyone on the best effort service has the same specification technology as others on the same sold product, those who do not can challenge it is not 'best effort' this is the loophole that non g.inp customers could use e.g. to challenge the technical difference in service received, although the only success likely achieved would be a penalty free exit from contract which wouldnt achieve much other than been banned by an isp as a customer.

You cant have a wholesaler obligated to tell the retailer but not have the same obligation further down the chain, legality doesnt work like that.

Of course the legal loophole i mentioned for 'best effort' will be exactly why this is all hush hush, as after all if customers dont know whats going on they are hardly likely to be upset. 

I think I am going to bring this up with revk on his blog and see what his answer is in regards to the secrecy.  I am very interested to know if its a CP decision or an openreach enforced NDA.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 17, 2016, 06:06:56 PM
Sadly we are not their direct customers, they probably have provided information to the CP's.  But the CP's are witholding the information either due to NDA or their own doing.

I agree with you its wrong but this is the situation we have now with the current market structure.

It's not wrong at all. Virgin Media don't give updates on all their trials to the customer base either.

It's none of your, or my, business what Openreach are doing with regards to G.inp. If our services are working as contracted we've no recourse.

Should Virgin Media be notifying customers when they test new CMTS, channel plans, modulation schemes, bonding groups, etc?

I could happily tell the people in this local area how many upstream and downstream channels are in use, the equipment that sources those downstream channels and receives those upstream channels, when the architecture is planned to go full CCAP, the local network frequency ranges, subsplit, and how many homes passed per node the network was built with.

Do normal customers have a 'right' to know this? Does it matter as long as they are receiving the service as advertised?

in my line of business if I started running experimental configurations on my customer's services without even telling them I would be in a lot of bother.  That is just not how you treat customers paying your wages.  It seems people with ties to the uk broadband sector have a shocking attitude to this issue, they seem to think because the whole industry is doing it then it must be ok.

Also I have read the t&c of a few isp's and yes they dont permit what is happening here, there is no mention of running speculative experimental services without informing the customer, they are also sold as best effort which in turn makes split services such as g.inp for some and not for others also questionable.

If you are right, then you need to explain why is it not ok for openreach to not tell the CP's?

I will give you a clear example.

Customers pays for 'up to 76mbit' broadband, sold on a best effort basis.  They are given an speed estimate when they order. 

Technologies such as g.inp can improve the speed by removing the need for performance reduction modes such as interleaving and banding, as a result g.inp has a direct impact on the best effort of providing up to speeds.  This would only be irrelevant to a customer who is in one of two situations.
They are on fast path 'and' not getting enough errors to impact performance.
They are syncing at max sync speed 'and' not getting enough errors to impact performance.
Now the isp could argue g.inp is not a commercial rollout and is a trial and as such isnt included in best efforts, but then they fail in that they have not informed the customer they on experimental technology.

If I had this mindset you are suggesting, then I could sell a upto 30mbit service, provided by bonding 2 adsl lines, and it wouldnt matter I dont disclose this because apparently the technology used isnt relevant.

--edit--

Someone has just now kindly confirmed there is no openreach enforced NDA, meaning this is a CP decision to keep it quiet.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: CarlT on April 17, 2016, 06:31:13 PM
Someone has just now kindly confirmed there is no openreach enforced NDA, meaning this is a CP decision to keep it quiet.

I'm not going to bother discussing the rest but this is demonstrably untrue. They don't put the attached in documents for fun.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 17, 2016, 06:32:51 PM
I was only reporting what I was told, check tbb for the source.

So thank you for confirming otherwise, we can end the speculation now if this is the CPs fault or BT.

This is indeed a tricky situation for end users, as BT are protected by the fact they dont deal directly with end users, and an isp can argue their hands are tied.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: kitz on April 18, 2016, 06:06:26 PM
Some info is covered by NDA, some info will be confidential and some info they make available but the ISPs dont bother to pass info on.
There are plenty of docs out there that are marked confidential, but not everything is. 

With DLM for example, much of the info is (or was) available on their portal but its scattered across so many other documents that quite often the ISPs dont want to take the time and effort to bother trying to understand it or explain it themselves as it means trawling through stuff.
Its piece-meal that you have to try put together.  Chris from Plusnet tried, and one of the guys from Zen started to piece things together too.

Many ISPs (and Openreach) just assume that the average customer doesnt want to know.   Particularly some of the larger ones, even their front line staff dont know whats going on, because its not passed down from above.   It's their job to deal with questions that already have answers up on the screen.   This is what happens when you get cheap broadband and the support agents dont even know what things like attenuation is.   Wasn't always like this.  :(

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on April 18, 2016, 06:44:16 PM
yep I can confirm sky support are never made aware of trials etc,. and I expect that to be the case with the vast majority of tech support staff from most isp's it will likely only be senior technical staff who will keep track of this sort of stuff.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 21, 2016, 06:49:20 PM
Well after another OR visit today they have managed to make my line even worse and according to DSLStats half my tones seem to have vanished too, any idea what is going on here please?

I've now dropped from a line speed of some 54Mbps to just over 43Mbps in two visits and still no sign of G.INP back on my cab. Interestingly the OR guys actually told me they are not even told about G.INP, that's four OR personnel so far have told me this.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 21, 2016, 06:59:02 PM
They are told of G.INP ……. but the way they word it as 'Re-transmission'. Take it from me, we've had quite a bit of notification about it, nowhere near enough about the potential issues, incompatibilities, etc …….. but that's how we roll. Which is why I come on here to get the experts view on what the hell it is I work on every day.  ;) ;D

That is not sarcasm, it's the truth.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 21, 2016, 07:32:10 PM
Well yes they knew about it, although not what it does. They all advised me they are not told it has gone live at all on any cabs they are working on.

They are however masters at reducing my line speeds.  ::)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Black Sheep on April 21, 2016, 08:11:50 PM
 :lol: :lol: ^^^^. That made me actually LOL.  :)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 21, 2016, 08:52:02 PM
I wish I had the same sense of humour, well actually I did until the last two OR visits.  ;)

Getting back to my issue of missing tones, can anyone explain to me why these seem to have vanished?

I've also noticed Attenuation is up and the Pwr (dBm) levels have also dropped since todays OR feat of doing the exact opposite of what they were requested to do, that being increase my upload (they reduced that) and get my download back to the level it was at before the last DLM reset on 11/04/16 (they didn't they reduced that too).  :o

On the plus side Virgin are currently installing their network in my street.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on April 21, 2016, 08:59:32 PM
Noise on the line could have eliminated your missing tones. Or a line fault.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on April 21, 2016, 09:08:02 PM
Thanks for that, so the so called "Broadband Engineer" obviously needs some training.

Worse still he told me he had a quick job to go to but he would be back to check on mine. He called me an hour later and when I told him it was worse he told me he wasn't coming back!

As a Chartered Engineer myself I have zero faith in OR, I do however digress.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on May 15, 2016, 10:09:10 PM
Any news on when we can expect G.INP back on ECI cabs yet?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: roseway on May 16, 2016, 10:00:57 AM
[I've moved the off-topic discussion about chartered engineers to:
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,17797.msg320532.html#msg320532 ]
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on August 01, 2016, 01:28:21 AM
Does anyone on an ECI cabinet still have G.INP or has anyone actually had it turned back on yet?
If not do any of the guru's on here know if (when) openreach are intending to get the issues some had sorted out?
I had no issues at all with G.INP on my ECI cabinet and ZyXEL SBG3300-N, I actually managed to gain a fair bit of download speed when it was on.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on August 01, 2016, 01:43:03 AM
2017 or later probably.  Best bet is to not expect it sooner, you will only be disappointed.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: j0hn on August 01, 2016, 02:03:56 AM
Does anyone on an ECI cabinet still have G.INP or has anyone actually had it turned back on yet?
If not do any of the guru's on here know if (when) openreach are intending to get the issues some had sorted out?
I had no issues at all with G.INP on my ECI cabinet and ZyXEL SBG3300-N, I actually managed to gain a fair bit of download speed when it was on.
yes, 2 people have kept G.INP on an ECI cab on MDWS (https://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/HG612-MultUsersLivei.htm?UO=14)
I personally haven't seen or heard of anyone who has managed to get it turned back on.
The last update sent to ISP's that I know of back in June advised that we are unlikely to have a solution deployed in this calendar year
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: S.Stephenson on August 01, 2016, 10:40:37 AM
Currently my thoughts are that only people with UHD BT TV will have G.INP on ECI at the moment.

I even got a TV package on my Plusnet line to see if anything would happen, nothing did.

Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Bowdon on August 01, 2016, 10:52:44 AM
I'm not sure if I've asked this previously.

But when we all go to G.fast will G.INP still work? Or are they different technologies?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on August 01, 2016, 03:01:09 PM
As I understand it, G.INP (G.998.4) will still be possible with a deployment of G.Fast (G.9700/G.9701).
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Busa on August 01, 2016, 05:37:08 PM
2017 or later probably.  Best bet is to not expect it sooner, you will only be disappointed.

Oh well there's a good chance I'll have switched to VM before then.

I've had terrible service from Openreach and BT over the years and if BT were the last provider on the planet I'd start writing letters again and travelling to speak to people rather than use them.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on August 01, 2016, 05:56:23 PM
Just in case of reminder.... :no:  :(
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18124.0.html
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 05, 2017, 11:36:22 PM
General G.INP questions on a fairly old thread:

I am only approx. 4 weeks on VDSL after migrating from ADSL2+, Plusnet 38/2 package.
I am definately on a Huawei FTTC cabinet, no reason to believe that G.INP is not enabled at the cabinet.
A good line, achieving practically DS profile speed, fast path DS & US, G.INP not active.
I do get DS ES errors but the daily rate is at the bottom end of the "orange" ILQ range, (speed profile) DLM not believed likely to intervene under current line conditions, should maintain fast path.
I appear to be on 6dB. target DS SNRM, ie., not yet part of the 3dB. migration process.
I easily maintained 3dB. DS SNRM when on ADSL2+ (not the same I know)
I am running DSLStats on a RPi 24/7 to MDWS so in a position to see what's happening.

My questions are:
Assuming that G.INP is available on my cabinet is it ever likely to be applied to my line, do I need it, is it applied anyway by default ?
There is a school of thought that it takes approx. 6 weeks on a new VDSL installation for G.INP to be applied, is there any factual proof of this ?
I have diligently read the excellent DLM articles produced by kitz, can not find any reference to the criteria for activation of G.INP, these documents possibly pre-dated G.INP roll out.

Any information appreciated.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2017, 11:52:06 PM
What date did your line go live? Could you post back if/when G.INP is enabled?

I'm in a similar situation to yourself with my line technically going live on 12th June. Interleaving was applied on 14th June. Right now I'm still waiting for G.INP but the way my order has gone I'm not holding my breath.

In the past we've seen periods where DLM has taken 7 weeks for it to be applied to lines. More recently though it has been much less than this, generally within the 1st 2 weeks of service.

Current policy (I believe) is still that G.INP is applied to all lines on the downstream by default, where the CPE supports it.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: burakkucat on July 06, 2017, 12:16:30 AM
I am of the opinion that G.998.4 (a.k.a. G.Inp) is applied if the DLM process deems it to be necessary.

If a circuit is operating on fast-path, then do not expect to see G.998.4 applied to it.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on July 06, 2017, 05:30:00 AM
General G.INP questions on a fairly old thread:

I am only approx. 4 weeks on VDSL after migrating from ADSL2+, Plusnet 38/2 package.
I am definately on a Huawei FTTC cabinet, no reason to believe that G.INP is not enabled at the cabinet.
A good line, achieving practically DS profile speed, fast path DS & US, G.INP not active.
I do get DS ES errors but the daily rate is at the bottom end of the "orange" ILQ range, (speed profile) DLM not believed likely to intervene under current line conditions, should maintain fast path.
I appear to be on 6dB. target DS SNRM, ie., not yet part of the 3dB. migration process.
I easily maintained 3dB. DS SNRM when on ADSL2+ (not the same I know)
I am running DSLStats on a RPi 24/7 to MDWS so in a position to see what's happening.

My questions are:
Assuming that G.INP is available on my cabinet is it ever likely to be applied to my line, do I need it, is it applied anyway by default ?
There is a school of thought that it takes approx. 6 weeks on a new VDSL installation for G.INP to be applied, is there any factual proof of this ?
I have diligently read the excellent DLM articles produced by kitz, can not find any reference to the criteria for activation of G.INP, these documents possibly pre-dated G.INP roll out.

Any information appreciated.


Mum had a brand new line and vdsl service recently. I monitored the line from first boot of the hg612. Line came up in fastpath by default. Only took 14 days for g.inp to be enabled...
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 06, 2017, 11:27:41 AM
Thanks to all for responses to date:

My conversion from ADSL2+ to VDSL took place on 7/6/17, I had already changed to the PN supplied Hub One a few days before in preparation, the conversion was absolutely painless and 100% on schedule, took about 15 minutes.
I had limited line monitoring at that stage using the RouterStats dedicated HH5a monitor, PN Hub One (BT HH5a) does not have a Broadcom chip set so not very good for stat's monitoring.

Initially VDSL connected on fast path, after 2 days auto re-synch'ed with DS interleaving applied, still on Hub One but could see that DS ES rate definitely prompted DLM action on the line.

Obviously with DS interleaving applied, DS ES rate went down considerably and after 4 days a DLM auto re-synch was applied and DS returned to fast path with the associated increase in DS synch speed & decrease in latency.
Have remained on fast path ever since ,have never has any issues with US noise or errors.

After approx. 7 days of VDSL operation I changed my set up to an unlocked Huawei HG612 / Netgear DGND3700v2 (my original ADSL router) combination which provided superior monitoring capabilities using DSLStats, actually got an immediate increased DS synch rate with the HG612 to my Huawei FTTC cabinet which was a bonus.

Later signed up to MDWS and used an old RPi to run DSLStats 24/7 for line monitoring.

Does not appear to be any definitive known criteria for G.Inp implementation.
I am currently inclined to go with burakkucat's opinion although skyeci's experience on a new VDSL line would appear to directly contadict this !
Quite a few forum members have reported that there is a time criteria governing G.Inp application, is this applied to a stable line as well as an unstable line ?

Of course I am still making the assumption that G.Inp is commissioned on my cabinet, I do have it on good authority that G.Inp has been rolled out on all Huawei cabinets in Northern Ireland where I reside.
I'am not in a position to check any of my neighbours who share the cabinet, they are mostly retirees still on ADSL2+ service and neither use or care about line monitoring as long as the I-Player works, normal people really, hard for us geeks to understand !

Will keep monitoring and report any further developments. 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on July 06, 2017, 01:07:25 PM
In mums case the line went live 24th april.
Email 5th may re g.inp from mdws

btmaxcd

This is an advisory mail to let you know that G.INP is now enabled for your line with Downstream Sync of 55000kbps ...

Automatic message from MyDSLWebStats
 ::)
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 06, 2017, 02:34:52 PM
skyeci, very interesting, only about 10 days especially as the line was operating on fast path, in your case appears to contradict normal theories that G.Inp is only applied if required, would have thought that interleaving would have been actioned first as per my experience if the line had been performing badly.

Perhaps the G.Inp application was just a scheduled event on your particular cabinet, no one seems to know exactly what governs G.Inp application or indeed if the policy applies nation wide ?

You were obviously monitoring your mum's line and were signed up to MDWS from first connection, how was the line performing prior to G.Inp application, did it look like DLM intervention was likely ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on July 06, 2017, 02:45:21 PM
not as far as I could tell. The line is only 295m from the cab and she is on a 55/10 - max attainable though in the 70's most of the time...  the cab has been here a long time though I think. They have just put a gfast pod on the pcp! so thats rather interesting. The combe down exchange is just around the corner which no doubt helps.. It never did get interleaved either just went straight from fastpath to g.inp etc..
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 06, 2017, 03:00:21 PM
skyeci, I took the liberty of looking at the line in question stats on MDWS, you did provide the ID in your last post.
You obviously were uploading data 24/7 to MDWS so the information is all there, what a fantastic facility this site is.

Prior to G.Inp application on 5/5/17 your DS ES daily average was 74, after G.Inp it has been zero or practically zero ever since, most impressive.
I did note that the line is now showing DS interleaving, depth of 16, was this applied at the same time as G.Inp, you did state that the line was fast path originally ?

By current DS ES daily average has been as high as 570 on fast path, certainly much higher than your line before G.Inp was applied.
Take a look yourself, my ID is as per this forum ID..
I only have the RPi running over a week now so not a lot of history as yet.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: skyeci on July 06, 2017, 03:09:28 PM
yup no interleaving pre g.inp.. was applied the same time as g.inp..

Wish I had her line rather than my own  :-\. hopefully will see g.inp return soon on ECI  :fingers:
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: j0hn on July 06, 2017, 03:21:11 PM
Quote
in your case appears to contradict normal theories that G.Inp is only applied if required
No idea when this became "normal theory" but the last official word I heard from OpenReach was it's applied by default on the downstream when supported. It would be madness not to enable it by default, there's not a single line in the country it won't improve.

Quote from: Ian Lawrence, Chief Engineer at BT Openreach and Director of Network Strategy & Engineering
Downstream

Initially, low interleaving is enabled by default on all retransmission lines. Once DLM has positively identified that the modem supports retransmission then retransmission is enabled. This happens after a few days. If the low level of retransmission is not good enough to correct all errors then the high level is selected by DLM.  If the line remains unstable and cannot be adequately managed by DLM with retransmission profile then Interleaving is applied as normal.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ginp-retransmission.htm

As with everything DLM, the implementation is useless.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 06, 2017, 04:26:28 PM
j0hn, thanks for your post and additional information.

Perhaps "normal theory" was the incorrect phrase to use, what I meant was that some forum members are of the opinion G.Inp is only applied if required, see earlier posts in this thread, I freely admit to not knowing hence the purpose of these posts.
Yes, I had read the kitz interview with BTOr chief engineer, very interesting.

As my current line properties are similar to the line being monitored by skyeci (actually worse with respect to DS ES rates) and I have not had G.Inp applied to date, I can only assume that either G.Inp in not actually active on my Huawei cabinet, or it takes longer than 4 weeks to activate.
(See skyeci's line monitor on MDWS site, user name "btmaxcd" and my current MDWS line stats, ID "tiffy")
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 06, 2017, 05:27:30 PM
Just another thought on G.Inp application:

I do have the latest firmware revision on my HG612 which supports G-Inp, however, I also run the Kill BT Agent Command (killall -KILL start btagent) from the DSLStats program, this is applied on every program start and in the event of an auto re-synch..

See the kitz / BT Chief Engineer interview, http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ginp-retransmission.htm as referenced earlier by "j0hn" in particular the question "Will MK2 G.Inp Upstream lines be moved on to a G.Inp profile...."
Could the BT Agent Kill instruction be prohibiting the modem from "positively identifing that it supports retransmission" ?

I have now removed the custom command from my DSLStats so won't be transmitted in the future, don't wish to carry out a forced re-synch at present so unlikely to make any immediate difference.
 
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Dray on July 06, 2017, 05:49:54 PM
If you used the firmware suffixed by _webgui the BT agent isn't loaded anyway
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: ejs on July 06, 2017, 06:22:20 PM
Plenty of third-party modem/routers won't have BTAgent but will work fine with G.INP, so killing the BTAgent process should make no difference.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 06, 2017, 07:49:22 PM
OK, Just another theory on the G.Inp trail, I can forget about the "kill btagent" command.

Dray, yes  I have definately used the "ver. 08_webgui" firmware to re-flash my HG612 modem so should be G.Inp ready.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 21, 2017, 04:21:07 PM
Getting towards 7 weeks now on fibre with G.Inp still not applied to my line.
NewtronStar did advise earlier that in his experience it can take up to 8 weeks to apply G.Inp to enabled systems using a compatable modem/router ?

Just in case of the very unlikely event of my HG612 being faulty or an issue with the unlocked firmware, I have substituted this today with another HG612 I have on hand freshly flashed with the latest G.Inp enabled firmware (again), to expectation, there has not been any immediate application of G.Inp on re-synch, will just have to wait and see what (if anything) happens in the longer term.

Probably clutching at straws, who knows with G.Inp, at least this will eliminate the hardware/software at this end, appears there is not a lot that ISP's have any control over at the DSLAM/cabinet side and it is up to the mysteries of BT DLM if indeed that's what controls G.Inp application/removal ?   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Chrysalis on July 21, 2017, 04:22:14 PM
Assuming something not broken openreach side then I expect its just a waiting game.  Lets hope you get g.inp soon.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 21, 2017, 06:04:20 PM
Assuming something not broken openreach side

Have you looked on MDWS all users currently online have never seen so many Huawei users who had G.INP and now inactive in ORANGE, I don't know if they moved ISP provider or had a DLM reset but trend point's at 1st and 2nd week of July  ???
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 21, 2017, 06:12:42 PM
Surprised I don't have G.INP yet.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 21, 2017, 06:27:11 PM
Surprised I don't have G.INP yet.

Did you get a DLM reset or changed to another ISP
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 21, 2017, 06:29:25 PM
Did you get a DLM reset or changed to another ISP

I had a new line installed.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 21, 2017, 06:42:59 PM
Oh I remember now you changed ISP and needed a pair swap now 21 days on and G.INP is still not active
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 21, 2017, 07:15:45 PM
It wasn't a pair swap really. It's a new line. The pair used for the old line is still there.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ronski on July 21, 2017, 10:24:53 PM
Have you looked on MDWS all users currently online have never seen so many Huawei users who had G.INP and now inactive in ORANGE, I don't know if they moved ISP provider or had a DLM reset but trend point's at 1st and 2nd week of July  ???

My brother (Jonski on MDWS) recently moved back to Thanet, so although it appears his line used to have G.INP, it is in fact a brand new FTTC install on a recently installed Huawei twin to an ECI. The line was activated on Wednesday. If you look at the sporadic stats you'll see a huge jump in the attainable as he was using a bog standard cheap and nasty very old extension cable, and then moved the HG612 to the master socket. The HLOG also showed what looked like bridge taps, but was just down to the extension lead.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 22, 2017, 12:04:58 AM
Do you have any sisters online Ron as samantha / Samski would be a good MDWS username
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ronski on July 22, 2017, 08:26:49 AM
No sisters at all, three brothers,  two have fttc but only one collects stats , the other has adsl with speeds  that suites his needs and is affordable for him.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 22, 2017, 11:22:42 AM
Have you looked on MDWS all users currently online have never seen so many Huawei users who had G.INP and now inactive in ORANGE, I don't know if they moved ISP provider or had a DLM reset but trend point's at 1st and 2nd week of July  ???
I checked on the MDWS "all active users" listing this morning:
Huawei cab listed users who are currently G.Inp disabled = 9 (G.Inp has been previously active)
Huawei cab listed users who have never had G.Inp enabled = 4 (including myself)

I'am sure I checked this less than a week ago and at that time I was the only active, Huawei cab member who had never been G.Inp active.
From memory, at that time there were no G.Inp inactive (orange) listings, certainly not 9.

There are quite a number of active users listed as neither Huawei or ECI cabs who have never had G.Inp applied, this has always been the case in the short time I have been active on MDWS.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: j0hn on July 22, 2017, 03:14:48 PM
Quote
I'am sure I checked this less than a week ago and at that time I was the only active, Huawei cab member who had never been G.Inp active.
Definitely not, I've been in that bracket since February.
Quote
From memory, at that time there were no G.Inp inactive (orange) listings, certainly not 9.
You must have been looking at the list wrong as there was definitely a similar figure a few weeks ago.
Username Minted on MDWS.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tbailey2 on July 22, 2017, 03:55:28 PM
Since 1st July six users have had G.INP disabled and two (different users) were enabled. In the time period that is an unusually high number of disables.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 22, 2017, 04:21:10 PM
OK, I could well be wrong, I quite often am !
Are we all talking about Huawei FTTC cabinet, active users only stat's excluding ECI cab users ?
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: bkehoe on July 22, 2017, 05:01:27 PM
I'm 'bkehoe' on mydslwebstats and moved home just over 2 weeks ago, still on Huawei cabinet and 8926. Spent 2 days on fastpath with 77mbit sync downstream but quite a few ES. Interleaved for over 2 weeks now with no sign of G.INP being enabled or any reduction in target SNR from 6dB. Approx 250m from cabinet.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 22, 2017, 05:22:10 PM
@j0hn (MDWS minted)
Sorry to hear that you have been waiting since February for G.Inp application, looking at your MDWS stat's which you have religiously maintained, you could certainly use G.Inp on your line.

Can I ask, what caused the quite dramatic change to your MDWS stat's on 14th. June where your DS ES rate reduced considerably, DS interleaving application/modification I would guess ?

Yes, your G.Inp waiting period certainly greatly exceeds mine, just short of 7 weeks, I won't hold my breath !

Did you ever take the G.Inp non application issue up with your ISP and if so what was the response.
I certainly have not to date, have the feeling it would be a complete waste of time anyway as the whole G.Inp issue appears to be shrouded in secrecy and a very grey area.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tbailey2 on July 22, 2017, 05:26:58 PM
OK, I could well be wrong, I quite often am !
Are we all talking about Huawei FTTC cabinet, active users only stat's excluding ECI cab users ?
Yes
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 22, 2017, 08:27:55 PM
I'm 'bkehoe' on mydslwebstats and moved home just over 2 weeks ago, still on Huawei cabinet and 8926. Spent 2 days on fastpath with 77mbit sync downstream but quite a few ES. Interleaved for over 2 weeks now with no sign of G.INP being enabled or any reduction in target SNR from 6dB. Approx 250m from cabinet.

I take it you have moved to another Huawei FTTC cabinet ?
Are you still on the same exchange ?
From MDWS I see your DS ES rate is zero, obviously due to the quite severe DS interleaving now applied.
You are indicating that G.Inp was previously applied to you line, I'am not sure if this information is taken from MDWS records or BT DSLAM/RAMBo records, sure the more knowledgable members of the forum will be able to answer this for you.
Unless you have only moved a very short distance your line is very likely on a different cabinet/DSLAM.

In the current scheme of things with respect to G.Inp implementation it's still very early days for your line, see j0hn's post in this thread, I am fibre connected now for close to 7 weeks and still waiting.
My line is currently good enough to keep DS interleaving off (most of the time) but G.Inp would obviously make it even better, why can't I have it ?

My MDWS ID is as per this forum name.   
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tbailey2 on July 22, 2017, 08:52:15 PM
If you are already an MDWS user and then move house and have a 'new' line, MDWS has absolutely no way of knowing so much of the data shown is possibly wrong - certainly from before you started with the new line. Hence the Inactive G.INP indicator which obviously shouldn't be there currently - I can remove it if needed.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ronski on July 23, 2017, 07:47:48 AM
It can be removed from my brothers account  (Jonski), as mentioned earlier in the thread he's just moved house. Thanks.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tbailey2 on July 23, 2017, 08:58:18 AM
Done
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: Ronski on July 23, 2017, 03:10:10 PM
Thanks Tony.
Title: Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
Post by: tiffy on July 27, 2017, 11:38:10 AM
@tbailey2
My line has finally been G.Inp'ed this morning @ 06:15, 7 weeks after ADSL/VDSL conversion day as can be seen on your site, good opportunity to observe the before & after effect of DS G.Inp action.

Note, my line was definately not struggling prior to DLM intervention this morning, was running at the very bottom end of ILQ amber yesterday and ILQ green for a good few previous days with respect to DS ES rate, looks like the DLM intervention was just to apply G.Inp..
My faith in BT DLM has been restored, for now !