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Author Topic: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate  (Read 172677 times)

Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #210 on: August 26, 2011, 11:50:15 AM »

Right, I'm back online again, but I haven't cracked open the champagne just yet.

On arrival the engineer confirmed that nobody had informed him of the issues history or previous visits.
So I gave him a very quick summary.
He also confirmed he could stay as long as it took to sort this issue out.

The engineer visually checked my internal wiring - all O.K, apart from one plug on one of my telephone extensions.
He said it needed a quick clean as it could potentailly cause a problem.

He plugged in his JDSU & laptop, but point blank refused to let me look at them.
He said he was only allowed to give me any stats verbally & there was no way he was going to risk being sacked for letting me see them.

Is that really the case razpag, that BT intentionally hide from end users the statistical details of the service that they are actually paying for, & that engineers can be instantly sacked for allowing users to see the stats?

We already know that the user interface for obtaining connection stats has been intentionally locked/hidden in the BT supplied modems.

He also added that strictly speaking, he should only be confirming whether or not speeds were higher than BT's minimum of 15 Mb.

Verbally obtained stats:-

Downstream Max Rate - 22 Mb
Downstream Actual Rate - 19.2 Mb
Downstream Line Attenuation - 23 dB (this is down from the 30.2 dB that I was allowed to photograph last time, but is it good or bad?)

The engineer stated that the attenuation value takes the whole telephone line from the exchange into account & not the distance from the cabinet.
Again, razpag, I suspect your findings from your recent installation job would confirm otherwise.

SNR - 5.7 dB (down slightly from 5.9 dB last time)
PQT - O.K.
REIN - O.K.
Line Length - Wouldn't confirm - said the JDSU does not report it. (I'm sure I have seen a photo somewhere of a JDSU showing line length)
Line generally is O.K.

He said that the results would be emailed immediately to Plusnet from his laptop, but he was not allowed to actually speak to them.

Off he went to the cabinet & I saw the modem disconnect.
Quite a while later he phoned me to say he had found that the speed was only 22 Mb at the cabinet. Hence me only receiving that speed at home.
I suppose that confirms that the D-side line is currently good enough to get whatever the cabinet is able to throw at me.

He also mentioned that had been unable to locate any faults on the E-side.

He went on to say he had been on the phone for ages to BT explaining the position & to request a "port flex".
I have never heard that phrase before & the engineer wouldn't expand other than to say it is not a "lift & shift".
I can only assume for now that is his terminology for a resetting of my profile and/or resetting DLM back to the starting point.

razpag, are you able to expand on what this actually means to BT?

He said I should get my fast speeds back anywhere within a few minutes to 24 hours from now as my line is good enough to support "quite a lot more" than the current 22 Mb.

This is the current speedtest.net result:-


The engineer did also mention that a lot of major wire & fibre cabling work is going on in Oldham Town Centre to make way for a new tram system (Metrolink) & this could potentially be causing a number of disconnections/speed issues for any number of Oldham's residents.

It seems like I will have to play the waiting for a while longer.

Alex from Plusnet has requested feedback from today's visit. Once I have updated him I will post any confirmation of what happens next on here.
It may be the case that Plusnet now have to nudge something at their end as was the case when FTTC was initially installed.


Paul.
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razpag

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #211 on: August 26, 2011, 01:09:08 PM »

Dinner break so quick reply.

Port flex in its basic terms means removing 'cappings' or other stuff to take back to default settings, ie-40Meg. Its a switch on-switch off in it's crudest form.

I mooted about checking for 40Meg at the PCP in my PM to you this morning, hence the other stuff about not being 'rocket science'. As I've said before, the int. crackle you have is so intermittent it wouldn't affect your speeds, maybe give a tiny few errors, but thats it.

Why it's taken so long to find a 'double jumper' in the Cab (the crux of all the problems), and the fact the DSLAM Port has locked up, is incredulous !!!

It can take time to 'flex' the circuit by a manual controller, so give it 24 hrs mate, but after that get on to them again. They may have 'flexed' and nothings happened. Then it needs a 'Lift & Shift'. Good days are on the horizon.

PS-- the engineer is wrong IMO, I always show the EU their stats if they're interested, there is nothing to hide ??Plus, nothing has ever been said that I've seen documented to say otherwise. I can't blame him for being cautious though, they tin-tack folk for 'owt these days. ;D
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #212 on: August 26, 2011, 01:25:32 PM »

Thanks razpag,

You have answered a couple of my queries there.

I am still awaiting feedback from Alex at Plusnet, especially my actual stats from this morning.
He is apparently not in work at the moment.

The Plusnet guy I spoke to confirmed that at their end, I am currently on, & have been since FTTC was installed, their max profile (for some reason they call it 37 Mb for all FTTC users).

I just await with bated breath for BT to do their bit now.

Paul.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #213 on: August 26, 2011, 04:23:02 PM »

Anyone fancy making any sense of the attached document & relating it to the UK's FTTC service via BT?  :no:

It talks about Attenuation & SNR etc.

Paul.
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razpag

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #214 on: August 26, 2011, 04:53:29 PM »

Not sure what info you need other than what is in the doc Paul ??? It is what it is.

My only comment to add to that document is, that the real issue is noise. If noise were completely erradicated, we could get 100Mb over 0.5 Cu cables. The blindingly obvious problem is this total elimination, hence the earlier comments withing the document about cat cable (more twists) being better at removing noise ceilings.

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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #215 on: August 26, 2011, 05:53:42 PM »

@ razpag

Edging toward total geekiness, all I was trying to suss out was what sort of attenuation I should expect for my own line length, or conversely what line length I should expect for my own attenuation as verbally reported today.

Your example of a recent installation was that the attenuation at the home was 13.5 dB over a known line length of 488m.
Entering 13.5 dB into the Kitz ADSL calculator results in a line length of 900m (more or less double the actual length). However, more or less the full 40 Mb was still delivered to the home speed-wise.

As the formula in the document uses frequency as part of the equation, I was hoping someone could confirm the frequencies used for the various flavours for ADSL, along with the frequency used for FTTC as provided by BT.

I have been unable to determine the actual frequency used for FTTC in the UK, but I believe BT use the 8c frequency profile.

Depending what I read, the frequency could be 4 MHz or 7 MHz for BT, & as high as 30 MHz in other parts of the world?

My current attenuation of 23 dB entered in the Kitz calculator results in a line length somewhere around 1700m (again double the real length).

From last time's JDSU attenuation reading of 30.2 dB, it resulted in a line length of 2200m.

I appreciate that SNR has a large bearing upon achievable speeds, but so too do attenuation/line length.

I just want to dispel once & for all the theory that BT & Plusnet both appear to have in that I have a very long line length from the cabinet (just in case they use that argument against me yet again in my ceaseless quest to regain my prevous higher speeds).

It may also even be useful for others at some stage, such as the guy in the other thread
( http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9846.0.html ) who currently has a reported attenuation of 63.5 dB (probably really more), just in case he should be considering FTTC as a possible option to increase his throughput speeds.

using an attenuation of 13.81 dB/km as the default constant for 0.5mm wire & 4.3 MHz as the frequency tells me that my line is pretty near perfect attenuation-wise for the known distance or pretty near 850m in length for the known attenuation.

Of course I may have used completely wrong values, hence my query, meaning my attenuation could be still pretty poor for the known distance.


EDIT:

OMG we are nearly on page 16 now.



Paul.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:14:14 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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razpag

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #216 on: August 26, 2011, 06:20:15 PM »

I see Paul. You have well and truly got the 'Broadband bug' mate. :lol:

My "Example" if you re-read, has me saying the actual attenuation would more likely be 11dB for the EU, as the JDSU is 'resistance heavy' and always 'add's a few dB's onto the figure.

Regarding the transmission frequencies ?? No idea mate, i'm sorry. Maybe when we get FTTC round my way, and there's more work than the squaddies and wet-behind-the-ear prenny's can handle, I might be able to enlighten further ?? Will you still be frequenting Kitz in 2-3 yrs time Paul ?? ;)

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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #217 on: August 26, 2011, 06:57:35 PM »

I see Paul. You have well and truly got the 'Broadband bug' mate. :lol:

My "Example" if you re-read, has me saying the actual attenuation would more likely be 11dB for the EU, as the JDSU is 'resistance heavy' and always 'add's a few dB's onto the figure.

Regarding the transmission frequencies ?? No idea mate, i'm sorry. Maybe when we get FTTC round my way, and there's more work than the squaddies and wet-behind-the-ear prenny's can handle, I might be able to enlighten further ?? Will you still be frequenting Kitz in 2-3 yrs time Paul ?? ;)

Even at 11dB, the Kitz ADSL calculator comes up with 800m, & I was going from memory, which I have to admit isn't quite what is was a few years ago :(

FTTC frequencies anyone?

Will I still be frequenting Kitz in 2-3 yrs time?
No, I'm buggering off & leaving you all in peace as soon as I get my 33 Mb back :lol:, unless it takes 2-3 years to get it back again.

Actually, I have been frequenting Kitz for a number of years (unregistered). I have found it to be a really useful & well informed resource (mind you when you only expect 1 Mb & actually get 1 Mb most of the time, there's not really a lot to consider is there?)

I have a feeling that I might just hang around & maybe find the opportunity to give back some of the excellent & friendly advice that you have all found the time to offer me, without all the nonsense that some forums (fora?) contain.

You know what I mean; "My sky box is connected to the toaster through a wireless cable & the front tyre on my mate's car is flat, what broadband speeds should I expect?" ???


Paul
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #218 on: August 26, 2011, 07:02:11 PM »

What about this for a recent download speeds graph?

Isn't it supposed to be something like a straight line?
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razpag

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #219 on: August 26, 2011, 07:06:41 PM »

Ha ha ha, cracking up at your last line. :lol:

Why not start a thread on, 'Improving your homes structural well-being' ?? I've questions like "Is a 'raft' better than 'piling', and other such queries.  ;D   
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #220 on: August 26, 2011, 07:38:23 PM »

Quote
You know what I mean; "My sky box is connected to the toaster through a wireless cable & the front tyre on my mate's car is flat, what broadband speeds should I expect?" ???

Answer: A sack of onions. ::)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 08:51:25 PM by burakkucat »
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waltergmw

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #221 on: August 26, 2011, 08:45:52 PM »

@ BKK,

Are you implying that it's a total sack of sphericals ?

Kind regards,
Walter
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #222 on: August 26, 2011, 08:50:42 PM »

@Walter -- Do you also perform mind readings at various Surrey village shows? "Spherical obloids" is the appropriate phrase. ::)
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #223 on: August 27, 2011, 08:53:15 AM »

21 hours back online since yesterday's engineer's visit & no change to speeds yet.

Not that I'm watching the clock or anything :D

My spreadsheet is doing that for me, to the nearest second - GEEK!!!
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #224 on: August 27, 2011, 01:39:26 PM »

Dear readers,

Well, the 24 hours have been & gone & still no improvement or feedback from anyone at Plusnet or BT.

I suppose I will have to wait until sometime next week now as it's a Bank Holiday on Monday.

At least the line "appears" to be stable now.

Paul.
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