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Author Topic: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!  (Read 13352 times)

chris6273

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Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« on: January 26, 2011, 05:21:21 AM »

Hi guys,

I have a question which I have stumbled upon time and time again:

Scenario:

From memory, when we first got a telephone line installed (Back in the days of the Post Office running things I think) our line was terminated at a 'External block terminal no.18 - see http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/BT18.jpg ). It still is but as far as I can remember, that was where (Back then) we were told that's where their responsibility ends and then it's our responsibility. We had the old 'Fixed Plate' socket and no 'Master Socket'.

Question:

Does my memory serve me correct and because of the age of the install, BT's responsibility ends at the terminal block?

OR

Has it all changed and BT's responsibility now ends at the 'Master Socket'?


Thanks for your answers :)
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razpag

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 08:37:51 PM »

I've worked for BT coming up for 25yrs, but the first 3 yrs were on 'Power & BES' as a sparky. Therefore I can't comment on where the demarcation point of old was. I have to say though, I'd be very surprised if it was at the BT18 !!!! That would mean you were responsible for the 'Lead-in' and the Line Jack Unit ??. Can't see that as being the case.

Fast forward to today, and we (Openreach, on behalf of your SP) are responsible up to the Master Socket (NTE5). If you have the old-style internal master socket (2/1A, 2/2A, 4/1A etc etc), you will not be charged if a fault on the line is caused by any of the extention wiring or sockets in the premises, as you have no way of legally isolating them. With the NTE5, you can remove the front plate (where all the extention wiring should be connected), and plug your phone into the 'Test socket' in the back plate of the NTE5. Obviously, if you have dial-tone in the Test Socket but lose it when the front plate is reconnected, you have a fault on your 'own equipment/wiring'.

As an aside, as well as replacing and bringing your internal Master Socket up to par, we should also change the old BT18 for a new BT66. The underground wires will be 'grease crimped' through to the 'Lead-in' rather than connected on screw terminals. It makes for a better, longer-lasting connection, as oxidisation and a build up of verdigris causes problems on screw-terminal connections.

HTH
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chris6273

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 03:01:02 PM »

So does that mean that because I do not have a master socket but a Line Jack and a BT18 box that I am still responsible from the BT18? If not, where is the demarcation point now?

Also, is there any chance BT would replace the BT18 free of charge?

Cheers
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razpag

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2011, 04:40:12 PM »

So does that mean that because I do not have a master socket but a Line Jack and a BT18 box that I am still responsible from the BT18? If not, where is the demarcation point now?

Also, is there any chance BT would replace the BT18 free of charge?

Cheers

In effect, (and as a general rule of thumb), if you dont have a NTE5 Master Socket, then you dont have ANY demarcation point !!!! Therefore, Openreach will fault the circuit, install a new NTE5 and if any of the extention wires/sockets are proving to be faulty, they will leave them disconnected all free-of-charge. Once you have the NTE5, you then have a demarcation point for any future faults that may occur.

Regarding the BT18. It will probably only be replaced if a fault is found to be within the box. It really depends on the type of engineer you get and his skill-set. This will in turn dictate what stores he has available on his van. If ypou do get an engineer willing to change it, even though there's no indication of a fault within the box, it will also be done FOC as, like your internal sockets, these are now obsolete.
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chris6273

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 12:18:54 AM »

Ok.

So, bearing in mind that I have an old Line Jack socket and there is no demarcation point, am I free to replace the cable from the BT18 to the Line Jack and then replace the line jack for a shiny new NTE5 without breaking the law? (The NTE5 socket I have my eyes on, has BT Openreach on the front of it so would it also be legal for ME to install this?)

Thanks again for your quick answers :)
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roseway

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 06:58:02 AM »

No, if there's no demarcation point then BT own all the wiring. They are the only people who can change it.
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razpag

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 03:24:10 PM »

Ok.

So, bearing in mind that I have an old Line Jack socket and there is no demarcation point, am I free to replace the cable from the BT18 to the Line Jack and then replace the line jack for a shiny new NTE5 without breaking the law? (The NTE5 socket I have my eyes on, has BT Openreach on the front of it so would it also be legal for ME to install this?)

Thanks again for your quick answers :)

To repeat what I said above .................. In effect, (and as a general rule of thumb), if you dont have a NTE5 Master Socket, then you dont have ANY demarcation point !!!! Therefore, Openreach will fault the circuit, install a new NTE5 and if any of the extention wires/sockets are proving to be faulty, they will leave them disconnected all free-of-charge. Once you have the NTE5, you then have a demarcation point for any future faults that may occur.

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waltergmw

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 04:58:53 PM »

Or put another way:-

Once the NTE 5 is fitted, BT - in their infinite generosity - give away their old internal wiring of your house complete with all bad-practice wiring and faults therein.

However the positive side of this policy is that there is now a clean interface and the ability to maximise the ADSL line performance at a much lower cost than paying BT for fault finding.

Kind regards,
Walter

EDIT  The above entry is not a reflection upon the abilities of hard-pressed BT O engineers who have sometimes near-impossible tasks in very difficult circumstances.

House wiring is often modified or damaged over time and the installation of a NTE 5 by BT O without star wiring is an excellent solution which thereafter isolates house wiring problems.
It also allows end users to repair or improve their own internal wiring at minimal expense and without the sometimes tortuous procedures (and possible subsequent costs) of fault reporting via their ISPs.

K R
Walter
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 12:18:34 PM by waltergmw »
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razpag

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 06:54:00 PM »

Or put another way:-

Once the NTE 5 is fitted, BT - in their infinite generosity - give away their old internal wiring of your house complete with all bad-practice wiring and faults therein.

However the positive side of this policy is that there is now a clean interface and the ability to maximise the ADSL line performance at a much lower cost than paying BT for fault finding.

Kind regards,
Walter

Thats a bit of a carte-blanche statement Walter !!.

Of course star-wiring of extentions existed pre-DSL. Why wouldn't it ??? The 4Khz circuits would work over wet string, and nobody could foresee what the future had in store, unless your goodself could Walter ??


Also, the extention wiring was only legally guaranteed for 12months from date of install. The GPO and subsequently BT ,for many years continued to 'fault' the extention wiring nearly always free of charge. When BT were 'sold off' and became a PLC, was it not obvious to you that we were now a share-holding company that has to show profit year-in, year-out ??? The first of many changes was the 'free' faulting service had to stop.

The OP is commenting on GPO line plant and subsequent wiring/sockets from over 25 years ago. You ring your plumber and tell him that radiator he fitted over 25years ago isn't working, and that you want him to repair it free.

You may be an old hand on this DG Walter, but comments like that aren't necessary and I'm sure you'd be offended if i said all 3-phase mains jointers are frickin' useless.

What a buffoon I am !!! I have been looking for an 'edit' option, while all the time it's 'modify'. Must have had a senior moment as it didn't register with me at all. After 'speaking' with Walter and seeing his modification, I realise I rather jumped in at the deep end without a moments thought. The perils of interpreting the written word !!! A topic I've moderated myself before now, and then go and fall into it head-long !!!! I'll leave my full post up as a reminder to myself not to be so rash in future.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 09:37:30 PM by razpag »
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jeffbb

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2011, 07:29:01 PM »

 :(
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razpag

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 07:29:47 PM »

Don't be sad jeff ....  ;)
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chris6273

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 06:49:37 AM »

I took a look inside the BT18 yesterday and I was SHOCKED with what I saw!!!

Pictures:

A look without taking the cover off:


A look inside:


Closer Look:


Looks as though the wires are not connected to the terminals but are terminated with those blue things.

Does it look as though it could do with a replace by BT bearing in mind the corrosion and mess in there? (I haven't mentioned I get quite a lot of errors on my line even though it syncs at 8128kbps so i'm guessing this box's condition is quite likely the culprit?)

Any other suggestions apart from the above?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 06:52:52 AM by chris6273 »
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waltergmw

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 08:21:10 AM »

The blue things are the obsolete BT "blue bean" crimps which should be replaced as I believe they are a dissimilar metal which can corrode - especially in damp conditions such as yours.

Kind regards,
Walter
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kitz

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 08:30:51 AM »

Don't be sad jeff ....  ;)

We're meant to be a happy friendly forum ;)
Anyhow back on track to help the OP.. I'll let razpag resume, since he knows his stuff. 
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razpag

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 10:02:06 AM »

Don't be sad jeff ....  ;)

We're meant to be a happy friendly forum ;)
Anyhow back on track to help the OP.. I'll let razpag resume, since he knows his stuff. 

Thanks Kitz. I may have gone slightly OTT with my reply to Walter, but I have to defend myself and other good engineers, (and the company to a degree) when sweeping statements about quality of work are made. Believe me, the draconian measures we are scrutinised by in every department of Openreach, would open your eyes !!! Disciplinary cases (often ending in termination of employment) are becoming frequent, due to measures not being met. The halcyon days of just botching a job are long gone.
Walter, I hope we can move on from this as you seem a very educated man whom I can learn a lot from. Please take this as the hand-of-friendship mate. ;D
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