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[sevenlayermuddle]

FYI,

Demon internet's throughput performance seems to have hit an all-time low due, I think, to traffic shaping.

Using the thinkbroadband speed test, with it's default port 8095, I got 40.1kbps.  Using port 80 from the same speed tester gets me around 2.5Mbps  MY IP profile's been 3Mbps for ages, and speedtest.net always reports around 2.9Mbps

I did have a moan at Demon about it a few weeks ago, but their response indicated they'd only take any notice if I tried the BT speedtester, with the BT Test login, which I assume (?), would completely bypass any bottlenecks caused by their own traffic shaping.

I'm not sure I have the energy to argue with them as, last time I argued with Demon, I only got any help after escalating it through Thus's formal complaints procedure.  Nowadays that would be C&W's complaints procedure, which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.  So I thought I'd that I'd have a moan here instead and I'm feeling better for it already  .

[roseway]

I'm not sure that you're reaching the right conclusion. If you get close to your full IP profile speed when using port 80 on the TBB test, that suggests that the problem with speed using the default port is caused by the way your own PC is configured, not by ISP traffic shaping. I'm a bit hesitant about this because I'm not certain, but I don't think that you can assume it's Demon's fault.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Eric - well maybe you're right,  I'm certainly outside my own comfort zone with this.

But the low (port 8095)speeds are only encountered during peak times.  I've just run it again (11.22pm) and saw 2405Kbps.  That's an alomst 40-fold increase since the exactly the same test with the same port 8095 test this afternoon (40.1Kbps). 

The same patern repeats most days, but not always so extreme.  A low of 200Kbps on port 8095 in daytime would be more typical, but that still compares to the best part of 3000 (my Bras profile) when using port 80.  I'd have thought the fact that the low speeds are only encountered with port 80, and also, only at peak times of day, would exclude PC-configuration as an explanation, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Demon do openly operate an FUP, but I'd not expect to have fallen foul of (anywhere near) their limits, I've received no notification that I have don so, and I don't see why that should be port 80-selective, so I don't think that's the answer either.

[roseway]

I think I may becoming round to your point of view then, if the low speeds are only experienced at certain times of the day, and only when using port 8095. Port 80 is commonly not throttled by ISPs when other ports are throttled, so it does look as though that's what's happening to you.

[jeffbb]

Hi

Have you tried this BT tester it does not by pass anything .

http://www.speedtester.bt.com/

Regards Jeff

[sevenlayermuddle]

Hi

Have you tried this BT tester it does not by pass anything .

http://www.speedtester.bt.com/

Regards Jeff

I've not tried it recently and can't right now as I'm away from home, but any time I've used it before it's confirmed my Bras profile was as expected (3Mbps for a 3.7Mbps connection), and it's confirmed by actual download speed is reasonably close to my profile.  But I think I already know that, and that my profile's unchanged, since other speedtesters report speeds close to 3Mbps.

But the other reason I think it may be unproductive is that Demon asked me not just to use the BT tester, but also to log off from their network and logon as the BT Test user (they've given me the exact details).   If I do that, then surely (or am I mistaken?) I'm just testing the BT part of the network, which would do nothing to prove or disprove that Demon are shaping/trhottling selective traffic.

[jeffbb]

Hi

As I understand when you use the "BT Test user" it tests excluding the ISP .That is useful because it would show whether  it is  a BT problem or an ISP problem. Normally that test would be used when the Throughput was found to be very low using the normal tester. I use to have problems with the "thinkbroadband speed test"and "namesco broadbandmax" tester, on my previous PC  .Which ever port I used on "Thinkbroadband " both those testers  gave about Half the result a compared to "Speedtest.net or the BT speed test. Using  netmeter to monitor the actual traffic iconfirmed the differences in throughput  . With this PC I do not have these discrepancies between the different testers .

Regards Jeff

[kitz]

If you are seeing full speed on TBBs port 80, but much slower speeds using their port 8095 it would seem to suggest that Demon are shaping traffic on non-standard ports.

There have been quite a few ISPs that have done this over the years and a TBB speedtest will often show different speeds if the ISP is performing basic traffic shaping on unknown ports... not realising that TBB uses port 9095 for their tester.   
A few years back, it affected quite a lot of speedtests and its now why TBB offer the port 80 test as an alternative.


If you perform a BTw speedtest the old way - then this completely bypasses the ISP network.   However it wont always allow you to do a direct login.

Sometimes you can get around this by first of all logging in to the BT test login domain which will authenticate you at the BTw RAS and allocate you an IP in the BTw range. 
Your DNS likely then wont work, but you may then be able to navigate to the BTw speedtester using one of its IP addresses such as http://217.32.105.42

[sevenlayermuddle]

If you are seeing full speed on TBBs port 80, but much slower speeds using their port 8095 it would seem to suggest that Demon are shaping traffic on non-standard ports.

There have been quite a few ISPs that have done this over the years and a TBB speedtest will often show different speeds if the ISP is performing basic traffic shaping on unknown ports... not realising that TBB uses port 9095 for their tester.   

Thanks Kitz,

It does indeed sound as if Demon are traffic shaping, to quite a large degree.  I said 40-fold earlier, but actually I got the maths wrong - it's nearer a 60-fold difference between ports 80 and 8095.

I'm still thinking that there's not much I can gain from the BT speed test in this respect, other than  the fact that Demon won't investigate unless I go through the motions.  I'm deducing that  BT's bit of the network is definitely capable of carrying the traffic, and hence absolved of all blame,  by virtue of the fact that the other speed testers (including TBB port 80), nearly always give a good result at all times of day.

I'm probably not going to bother complaining any more to Demon however, as I'm sure a high-level decision has been taken to do it, in full awareness of the impact it would have, and in full awareness of the fact that a lot of their competitors do likewise.  That being the case, if I complain, in all probability they'll just refuse to understand the question.   And even if I persist, to the point where they admit they're doing it, I'd just be telling them something they already know, so there's no reason to think they'd change anything.
 

[kitz]

Demon have this to say about their traffic shaping

http://www.demon.net/helpdesk/technicallibrary/faq/networkman-faq/

I'll let you read through and digest.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Demon have this to say about their traffic shaping

http://www.demon.net/helpdesk/technicallibrary/faq/networkman-faq/

I'll let you read through and digest.

Thanks Kitz,

I'd not found that page on demon's site.

As you say, I need to 'read and digest', which is better than my immediate inclination to start ranting on about it without thinking it through properly.

On the face of things, I actually sympathise with ISPs having to cope with the huge increase in traffic from things like the iPlayer.   As soon as I heard iPlayer was going to be launched my reaction was "that'll never work! (because of bandwidth)".   Then again I, personally, don't use iPlayer or any equivalents or any p2p applications, so I'll be miffed if I'm paying the price.

If I can identify any adversely affected applications or services, that I actually use, then I just might have a jolly good rant after all (but not at you, obviously).

Thamks again

7LM

[Lyndka]

Demon certainly are throttling non standard ports - my friend and I play Guild Wars and Second Life and for the last two weeks lag/latency has been atrocious. Friends in those games not with Demon have noticed nothing....

The technical support is poor - every call is met with "Have you checked the house wiring?" - reply "Erm yeah - a friend who's a BT engineer replaced it last year..." and the line drops more often than my ex used to buy a round of drinks.

Tomorrow afternoon - phone call to Demon for my MAC and then a phone call to Be - LLU at my exchange - twice the line rate and £5 a month cheaper - Woohoo!!!

[broadstairs]

Tomorrow afternoon - phone call to Demon for my MAC and then a phone call to Be - LLU at my exchange - twice the line rate and £5 a month cheaper - Woohoo!!!

I dont believe you need a mac to go LLU, at least I did not when I did it....

[sevenlayermuddle]

Unfortunately, leaving demon's not an easy option for us.  I (with my partner) run a busy (non-commercial) website, visits-per-day in the thousands, which originally had a .demon.co.uk domain name.   We've long since registered our own .com domain name, hosted by an independent hosting service and the demon one's now just a redirect to that, but there are still an awful lot of links to the old demon domain name, so we're reluctant to give it up.   Likewise, there's still too many people sending mail to our old .demon.co.uk mail addresses.

I totally agree about demon's tech support being attrocious. I had to ask them last year to get BT to lower my target margin, and it quickly became apparent that the off-shore call centre hadn't the slightest idea what a noise margin was.  They "tested my line" and confirmed my error rates were fine, but 'there had been a lot of disconnects one day'.

'Yes' I said, that was me playing with the router, and that'll be what caused BTw to increase my margin.  'No', they said, that wouldn't affect my speed, a drop in speed would suggest a router defect or a wiring fault.  I asked them outright if they new what a 'noise margin was', and they indicated they'd never heard of it but were unwilling to escalate my request to somebody who did, unless  I first took my two-year-old router back to the shop (Amazon) and ask them to check it for me.

Eventually, I escalated the matter through Thus's formal complaints procedure, based upon a complaint that the tech support staff were, basically, completely useless.  After that I eventually got to talk to somebody who understood DSL and dealt with my request.  'Thus' offered me a month's free service as a 'goodwill gesture', but I declined to accept it as, in my view, they had done nothing to correct the underlying problem, which was the uselesness of their support staff. 

All of that was before they became C&W, they may be either better or worse now.

[Lyndka]

I can understand the reticence about change - I've got dozens of people with my old eMail address with '.demon' inside - but thankfully having sent a 'round robin' mail to most of my regular contacts it won't be so painful to move. There's also the added bonus that spam will fall to zero for a while!

As far as getting the MAC - you probably dont need it for an LLU but Be asked for one and I didn't want to stay one month longer with Demon than necessary. The latency is still atrocious when I try to game - yet web browsing and file downloads are working as well as ever, I've even torn my machine down to basics and configured back to defaults (short of re-installing WinXP altogether) so I'm pretty much convinced it's throttling (especially as it all started suddenly rather than speeds slowing after an update or software install) especially as their sales pitch for Home/Office more or less admits to them doing it.