Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8

Author Topic: Superfast Cornwall Experience  (Read 26935 times)

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33884
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #75 on: August 06, 2016, 07:00:51 PM »

@wombat.   I just had a thought whilst answering digitalnemesis's question here.

As already pointed out both lines are long with a low sync rate.   PTM packet framing is considered more efficient on sync speeds > 10Mbps.
If you look at adsl stats using ATM then its not unusual to see ~30 bytes.  The smaller cell sizes are better for critical apps such as VOIP at low speeds.  It also crossed my mind yesterday that ADSL1 and before S=1/2 mode that practically 50% of data is overhead as I said at the time of that post its this mode which enabled the 8Mbps of ADSL1 to jump to 16Mbps in ADSL2 and I thought to myself then its almost like its framing for ADSL1 rather than VDSL.

I just looked at some of my old stats when on ADSL1 with an upstream of 832 Mbps and my K value is 27. 

I'm not sure where I'm heading with this, but in view of the fact that the larger packet sizes are supposed to only be more efficient at higher speeds, is there something going on here whereby the DSLAM is deliberately forcing small packets on upstream speeds of ~1Mbps or below?
DLM appears to be forcing the usual 16 bit RS redundancy for FEC.   

Its not showing on TJ's stats because he has G.INP - albeit downstream - and no RFEC value.  I cant see the atten from those stats but look how he is able to get 1Mbps upstream despite having a much slower downstream.


---
PS

Sorry hendry for going slightly off topic and talking to wombat in your thread, but framing params for VDSL is something we are both trying to get to the bottom of in an attempt to make some sense out of them. 
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2016, 07:30:26 PM »

Surely PTM will be more efficient than ATM at any bandwidth? An ATM cell has a 5 byte header and 48 bytes of data, PTM is split up into codewords, with 1 leading header byte and 64 bytes of data. That's where the efficiency, or lack thereof, originates. PTM is included in the ADSL2 specification, but no-one seems to use it.
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33884
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2016, 07:46:04 PM »

I'm not saying they are using ATM, after-all the modem is configured as PTM...  rather deliberately decreasing the size of the packets in attempt to make them more efficient for slower speeds and induce less lag for time critical apps.

Quote
I'm not sure where I'm heading with this, but in view of the fact that the larger packet sizes are supposed to only be more efficient at higher speeds, is there something going on here whereby the DSLAM is deliberately forcing small packets on upstream speeds of ~1Mbps or below?
DLM appears to be forcing the usual 16 bit RS redundancy for FEC.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2016, 08:03:28 PM »

I don't think any of the VDSL2 framing parameters will affect the size of the PTM packets or PTM codewords. The full size of the PTM packet will be big enough to carry the IP packet it needs to carry. It will still be split up into the 64/65 octet PTM codewords in the PTM layer.

Yes, at a lower level, the DSL frame size has been set very small, and that may be something to do with wanting each block of FEC bytes to cover a small amount of data. Or, the framing parameters may be a symptom of whatever is causing the slow upload speed, and not the cause.
Logged

WWWombat

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2016, 11:46:26 PM »

I've been checking the VDSL2 spec for more framing information...

The MUX data frame is the smallest building block. I've not found a lot to suggest why some are small, some are large. There are rules over some of the sizes, so there may be consequences that aren't obvious to me.

However, those frames build up, with 17 going to one OH subframe, and more becoming a full OH frame. The CRC check, it turns out, is done at this level. The single byte per MUX data frame is part of the OH data, and goes towards the full OH (overhead) data stream. CRC is part of it, as are indicator bits such as LOS, and the EOC messages. I don't think that a small MUX data frame makes any of the higher-level structures run faster, but I can't easily check this comprehensively right now.

I can't see a relationship between the MUX data frames and the PTM structure.
Logged

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5722
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2016, 11:07:05 AM »

What the hell are you lot talking about ^^^^^ I've more chance of understanding Klingon.  ;D ;D :'( :'(
Logged

WWWombat

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2016, 09:22:22 PM »

s'Funny - I'd have said double Dutch myself.  :drunk: If you don't get understand it, try two more Heinekens, and repeat...

I've been reading comms specs for 30 years now, and there's plenty behind the vdsl2, vectoring and G.INP specs that leave me for dust too. No matter how many times you read them, you find there's more to learn from another read through.
Logged

hendry

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 18
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2016, 04:02:12 AM »

Sorry for the delay guys, I've updated the expect script with extra ADSL info.

Code: [Select]
wget archive.webconverger.com/dslstats.zip
unzip -c dslstats.zip stats/2016-08-08/1470625013.txt

Had a chat with A&A and they came back with:

Quote
Sync on both the upstream and down has been varying slightly overtime.

There was an engineer visit 24th Feb this year, where a lift and shift
was performed. There was also additional work performed by the engineer
at that time to improve the local network.

We also had engineer visits in 2013 in an attempt to resolve the low
upsync. This was escalated within BT and unable to resolve due to the
D-side being approx 1.3Km

We can try again, but believe you are at the limit of what can be achieved.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2016, 04:32:25 PM »

Are you able to provide the information I requested so that we can attempt to understand the current infrastructure problem?  :-\
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2016, 04:58:25 PM »

All the bits, SNR, QLN, HLog and other data requested is within the zipfile.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2016, 05:21:30 PM »

All the bits, SNR, QLN, HLog and other data requested is within the zipfile.

Thank you.  ::)
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2016, 05:32:57 PM »

My apologies to anyone expecting to see plots of Bald_Eagle1 quality.  ;)

I offer, below, the Hlog, QLN and Bit loading per sub-carrier plots.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2016, 05:35:03 PM »

I offer, below, the SNR per subcarrier plot and both landscape & portrait montages.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33884
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2016, 10:26:28 PM »

@wombat @ejs

I really do think may be something in the theory about deliberately making the packet size smaller on slower links.  Unfortunately I have quite a bit going on right now and I'm not in a position to be able to research or take onboard new info.

Serialisation is an issue on networks.  Using the standard formula: Serialization Delay (secs) = Size of Packet (bits) / Transmission Rate (bps)

Serialisation causes delay on a 1 Mbps link is 12ms, yet its 24ms for a 500kbps link*.   Therefore the slower the link the more advantageous it is to use smaller packets.

Quote
The  latency  problem  results  from  the  fact  that  an  entire 
packet   must   be   received   for   its   content   to   become   
available  to  an  application.  In  Ethernet  terms,  “entire 
packet”    means  up  to  1500  bytes,  while  in  ATM  the  unit 
of  transferred  data  is  only  53  Bytes.  On  a  typical  ADSL 
link, running at 1 Mbps, the time to transfer 1500 bytes is
12  ms.  It  is  clear  that  queuing  alone  could  consume  a 
large   portion   of   the   delay   budget   of   a   time-critical   
application such as a voice connection. 
5. Conclusions
The  ATM-TC  and  PTM-TC  layers  defined  for  Digital 
Subscriber  Line  systems  both  have  their  advantages  and 
disadvantages  for  the  transport  of  Ethernet  frames  on  the 
local loop. At low bitrates, latency becomes an important
issue,  which  is  best  dealt  with  by  ATM,  because  of  its 
small  PDU  size.  When  different  types  of  service  are 
converged on the same channel, ATM is best equipped to
guarantee   the   QoS   requirements   of   each   individual   
service.
At  high  bitrates  latency  becomes  somewhat  less 
important, and the reduced overhead of PTM is a distinct
advantage, provided that the necessary OAM&P tools are
in  place.  The  functionality  of  the  ATM-TC  and  PTM-TC 
layers  is  comparable  in  terms  of  mechanisms  for  frame 
delineation, error detection and rate decoupling. The flow
control mechanisms are also similar, but due to the larger
granularity  of  Ethernet  frames,  larger  buffers  will  be 
required than in the case of ATM.


So we have ethernet at home, we have fast speeds on the 21CN backhaul, and also on the internet.   The bottleneck is the physical DSL link ie between modem <-> DSLAM over the copper wire.   So something has to happen otherwise there is going to be some huge latency incurred over this part of the link.  Traditional ADSL used ATM framing of just 53 bytes, yet PTM uses anything up to 1500 bytes (same as ethernet).

For adsl (ATM) we have the ATM adaptation Layer (AAL5). AAL specifically segments and reassembles the higher layer packets into ATM cells for transfer over the ATM part of the link.  In laymans terms AAL5 is responsible for chopping up ethernet size packets for transmission over the DSL link and reassembling at the other end. Thus ensuring serialisation is less of an issue over the DSL part of the link and reducing latency.

So the next question is what happens with VDSL framing and PTM.   Look at stats, quite obviously some sort of framing is still going on - probably one of the HDLC subsets.  Even on my 80Mbps link, the VDSL frame size is still restricted to just 255/240 bytes.   

I also just noticed npr's post here.  Yet another long line with upload speed of less than 1Mbps and an N value of just 19.  No R value though.   

These small frames sizes appear to be used on slow links.  I have no idea what defines the smaller frame sizes other than it does appear to be smaller frames for speeds of less than ~1Mbps. As I mentioned in my previous post when on adsl my 'K' value for 832 upstream was 27. 



Calculations

(1500 bytes * 8) / (1Mbps *1,000,000) = 12000 / 1,000,000 = 0.012 secs = 12ms

Serialisation delay on a 0.5Mbps link =  12000 / 500,000 = 0.024 = 24ms


Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

WWWombat

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
Re: Superfast Cornwall Experience
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2016, 12:54:13 AM »

My apologies to anyone expecting to see plots of Bald_Eagle1 quality.  ;)

I offer, below, the Hlog, QLN and Bit loading per sub-carrier plots.

I've got a really bad connection tonight, so I can't analyze much right now, but...

That Hlog graph doesn't look very "impacted" - it looks nicely smooth, which likely means no faults, but just reflects the properties of a high attenuation line - either too long, too thin, or too much aluminium. The fast rate of dropoff might show aluminium, but I can't compare via MDWS. Suffice to say the line is behaving more like 1.5km, not 1km

The QLN graph shows little impact of noise/crosstalk.

The nett effect is few bits in U1, while D1 isn't that bad (especially in lower tones). And the decision to allocate more than 55% of upstream to overheads takes away all those bits, leaving something less than ADSL.

DLM hasn't intervened, and at a first glance, the errors don't look bad.

My best superficial guess would say a fairly long line length, but some aluminium is having an impact.

Upstream ought to be capable of 1Mbps, but it needs to stop using FEC to achieve that. Try more modems?
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8