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[aesmith]

Just found I plan I'd made up for other purposes, showing the supply arrangements.  I've added the phone line route, and the path along which the van radio heard this alleged REIN signal.  Would appreciate any comments, because at the moment I'm finding this hard to believe, firstly because of the distance to the phone line, and second because the line characteristics were unchanged when the signal stopped.  Also uploading a wider scale map showing distances to neighbours and therefore to electrical equipment other than my own. (Edit, second map doesn't show scale, but the 1km grid spacing is visible)

[Black Sheep]

I think the major clue here, is that the circuits characteristics remained the same when the 'Noise' disappeared.
As I said before, the van radio, or your own portable radio will pick up all levels of 'Noise', it's whether they are service affecting levels that matters.

If your fault is constant, then I would humbly suggest you have a HR-type fault ?

[aesmith]

Thanks.  HR=High resistance?   Would that not have shown on the guy's tests, or does it depend on how the test was carried out?

I did point out to the OR guy, and to the ISP, that the buzz on the line was unchanged when this signal disappeared.  They just seem to be completely blinkered and convinced it's REIN - maybe because that's something they could wash their hands of.   The OR guy came into the house with that mind set, after listening to his radio when he was 100 yards or so away from the phone line, even though he lost the signal when alongside the house.

Final DIY tests for the moment, I just confirmed that the buzzing on the line is unchanged when I switched power off at the incomer.  The meter is still energised, and the service cable, but no other electrical equipment could have been powered on with 400m of the house.

[tickmike]

Thanks.  HR=High resistance?   Would that not have shown on the guy's tests, or does it depend on how the test was carried out?

On the 240volt mains supply Not your phone line !.

If there was a bad joint it could send out rf interference all around and maybe your phone line would pick it up.

[aesmith]

Cheers.  That's something I can check out, shame I didn't think of it when I had the power off anyway.

[burakkucat]

There is the possibility that the pole mounted 11 kV to 240 V transformer has a developing fault, enough to generate copious RF. 

[tickmike]

There is the possibility that the pole mounted 11 kV to 240 V transformer has a developing fault, enough to generate copious RF. 

That's what I was thinking 
Can you find where it is @ aesmith and take a portable radio near it, and have a look at night to see if there is any arcing and listen for sparking sounds.
You could get the local electric supply people to have a check of your supply (tell them your supply fluctuates and you have smelt a burning smell  )

I have in the past reported all sorts of problems when I have spotted them while out walking and the electric chaps are very grateful 

[aesmith]

I went through the electrics today, starting off by switching off everything at the meter cabinet, then checking all connections before switching back on. 

I was not amused to find a loose neutral in the consumer unit, not just loose but backed off almost all the way.  Very black mark to the sparkies who did the rewire in 2011!  That was the immersion heater, which we can't remember ever having used.  I don't know if that could have caused an issue if there was no current flowing.  On the other hand even if not relevant to the BB issue, that was a potentially dangerous condition now fixed.

Elsewhere everything seems tight and properly connected so far as I've checked.  Nothing detected at the pole.

[aesmith]

Armed now with a "BT Telephone 290A", the noise on the line sounds very similar in Monitor mode with the line idle as it does during Quiet Line.   What I'd really like to do is have a listen 1/4 mile of so nearer the exchange.

[aesmith]

Openreach should be attending yet again tomorrow.   The ISP seems unable to give any detail on what the guy's remit will be, but they said it's raised as a broadband and not a telephone fault, and it will be a REIN engineer.

I was thinking to try and steer him along the following lines, what do people think?
(1) Start with house switched off at the incomer, so no energised electrical equipment or wiring inside the house or outbuildings.
(2) See whether his testing still shows all these FEC errors
(3a) If the line runs clean like this, then I guess we have to accept that it's our equipment or wiring causing the problem, and hopefully narrow it down by powering stuff up circuit by circuitt
(3b) If we still get FEC errors with everything shut down, then what?   At that stage I would be anticipating an attempt from OR to stillclaim that it must be some external interference, but do they have any obligation to demonstrate this, or to identify the source?

As you can maybe see I'm concerned because the last two guys arrived with a preformed fixed idea that REIN was the cause, and all they were interested in was explaining that this doesn't constitute a line fault and therefore won't be something they can fix.   

[burakkucat]

Your plan of action reads as reasonable, so I'm not sure what else to add. Obviously it would be important not to "tell" her/him what to do but to show interest in the technicalities and ask questions so that she/he can demonstrate her/his understanding/knowledge.

Remember to make some coffee or tea and to offer biscuits or a bacon sandwich! 

[Black Sheep]

Openreach should be attending yet again tomorrow.   The ISP seems unable to give any detail on what the guy's remit will be, but they said it's raised as a broadband and not a telephone fault, and it will be a REIN engineer.

I was thinking to try and steer him along the following lines, what do people think?
(1) Start with house switched off at the incomer, so no energised electrical equipment or wiring inside the house or outbuildings.
(2) See whether his testing still shows all these FEC errors
(3a) If the line runs clean like this, then I guess we have to accept that it's our equipment or wiring causing the problem, and hopefully narrow it down by powering stuff up circuit by circuitt
(3b) If we still get FEC errors with everything shut down, then what?   At that stage I would be anticipating an attempt from OR to stillclaim that it must be some external interference, but do they have any obligation to demonstrate this, or to identify the source?

As you can maybe see I'm concerned because the last two guys arrived with a preformed fixed idea that REIN was the cause, and all they were interested in was explaining that this doesn't constitute a line fault and therefore won't be something they can fix.

Stages 1-3a are perfect, and are pretty much what I do when proven conclusively that REIN is the culprit.

Stage 3b ?? Again, I can only use myself (and another guy I know) as examples. I personally would attempt to localise where the REIN was coming from by a) Using the van radio at 612Kz and b) Intervening in the Network to determine where the good and bad readings are. Also, using the 444B Tester in joints and on overhead wires can sometimes indicate the direction the source is ??.
However, to use the 444B, the engineer must first set up the Spectrum Analyser to view the DSL bandwidth and watch which frequencies are being affected by the REIN. He can then set the tester to the required 'sweep' ...... 0-1Mhz or 1-100Mhz.

To reiterate, the above is assuming your 'pair of wires' are in absolute perfect condition, and are rejecting normal levels of 'noise'.

Good luck, hope you get the required result ??

[aesmith]

Stages 1-3a are perfect, and are pretty much what I do when proven conclusively that REIN is the culprit.

Thanks, in my mind that has not yet been proven.  It seems to be an assumption because their copper line tests pass but yet the errors persist in the DSL and noise on the phone line.  The last guy really showed that mind set, his mind was made up before he entered our premises or even went near the route of the phone line.  All he actually did was to fit a filter (made no difference) and changed the noise margin (made no difference to error rate, just slowed the line down). 

One question - the ISP referred to BRAT (or Brandenberg) picking up REIN, and pin pointing it at my house.  Given that this is kit at the exchange, firstly how does it detect REIN, is it just from the pattern of errors or does it detect foreign signals on the wires?  Also, how does it know where these errors or spurious signal entered the cable?

[Black Sheep]

Stages 1-3a are perfect, and are pretty much what I do when proven conclusively that REIN is the culprit.

Thanks, in my mind that has not yet been proven.  It seems to be an assumption because their copper line tests pass but yet the errors persist in the DSL and noise on the phone line.  The last guy really showed that mind set, his mind was made up before he entered our premises or even went near the route of the phone line.  All he actually did was to fit a filter (made no difference) and changed the noise margin (made no difference to error rate, just slowed the line down). 

One question - the ISP referred to BRAT (or Brandenberg) picking up REIN, and pin pointing it at my house.  Given that this is kit at the exchange, firstly how does it detect REIN, is it just from the pattern of errors or does it detect foreign signals on the wires?  Also, how does it know where these errors or spurious signal entered the cable?

You are quite correct, Brandenberg Repair Access Tool (BRAT) is basically a summary of all the stats. It can not detect where 'Noise' enters the 'pair of wires'.

BRAT really is a hit and miss indication, and one that unassuming engineers (or engineers wanting a quick 'out'), may interpret wrongly.
 
An example is .... its summary of DS Attenuation may pass, but there could well be a HR fault on the circuit in question that it can't 'see'. This HR will be what is allowing excessive 'noise' in and causing many CRC's/FEC's. So, BRAT assumes the 'pair of wires' is ok and that the errors can only be down to REIN.

Don't get me wrong, BRAT does have its place in DSL faulting, but it has to be used in conjunction with all the other tests we have at our disposal. PQT, DSL Close-out, Eclipse, TDR, HR Detect, Auto ID, Quiet Line Test, Using the QLT whilst performing an error-rate test at the same time, ringing the landline number whilst performing an error-rate test ......... that's off the top of my head, there's more that I've forgot to mention.

The real underlying issue, is the pressure on the engineer to be both efficient and productive with extreme time-pressures placed upon them.
I hope you get an engineer who takes ownership and finds the source of the fault ...... a probable HR, IMO.

[aesmith]

 Thanks.  You've speculated about an HR fault earlier but would that not be detected by the pair quality test?