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Author Topic: Line problem vs Congestion  (Read 12483 times)

g1000

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2015, 11:46:47 PM »

Thanks Chrysalis, yes good point. Though I now conclude the MTBE and MTBR figures are all wrong and somehow stuck anyway because Plusnet did a line test yesterday 26th Feb and it yet again reported the exact same numbers as on 2nd and 8th Feb, including the very wrong MTBR figure.

Thanks tickmike, I noted your request, but just didn't have time to set up DSLstats yet, and I have never done it before. I am away from home working for a week now, but other family are there so I'll try giving some instructions. They struggle with basic computing, so I'm not hopeful it will be successful just yet. I want to give as much info as I can though, don't worry.

I suppose at the end of the day, the practical solutions are fairly limited, so in the meantime I should get on to Plusnet to deal with it. (I have to ask on the Plusnet forum for that team to help because the support on the ticket is very poor, too many times now they write brief nonsense where they haven't read or checked things properly which just delays it 6-7 days before they respond back.)

Plusnet's update:

Engineer Notes
Service restored, PQT OK and demonstrated to EU. no faults or errors found called DcoE to confirm line ok. reterminated ug feed removing peaced out wire and crimps fitted a SSFP Mk3

Summary
Connection is stable and speed is fine. I'll pass back to EU.

Dear ..... ,

Thanks for your patience. From testing your circuit, I can see that your issue is resolved as the connection is remaining stable and the speed looks great. Please continue to monitor and get back in touch if you have any further problems.
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boost

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2015, 10:51:44 AM »

Some graphs would tell a thousand words. ;)

I'm wondering if they've already seen the graphs (a suspect HLOG), hence BTOR visit, reterminated and new SSFP. New line test/DELT shows clean HLOG = thank you and good bye.

So if you still have a problem, it probably is congestion.
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g1000

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2015, 03:37:24 PM »

Some graphs would tell a thousand words. ;)

I'm wondering if they've already seen the graphs (a suspect HLOG), hence BTOR visit, reterminated and new SSFP. New line test/DELT shows clean HLOG = thank you and good bye.

So if you still have a problem, it probably is congestion.

I don't think so, Plusnet booked the engineer on the basis of low MTBE (everything can be seen on Plusnet's ticket system, including their notes to the engineer).

The engineer didn't have any information to hand, he asked me why he was called out, and I handed him a printout of these notes and explained everything and he acted on that.

It was me who told him about the crimps behind the master socket put there by an engineer in 2012 (see below), only then did he have a look. He said they won't be causing any problem, but he would remove it as it was a potential point of failure for the future. A SSFP was already in place, he upgraded it to MK3. It hasn't fixed anything.

Previous Line Issue in 2012

- In 2012 my line developed issues and focus was on the E-side, Tie Pairs and Lift and Shift so maybe these need attention now too?
- Previously, the line was flawless (we have owned property from new for 10 years). I have consulted my notes and emails from the time to refresh my memory.
- The line became very unstable, and DLM was driving especially the upload sync speeds right down, no engineer could properly fix it, they even added a RF3 filter by crimping in a new piece of wire to my feed.
- Eventually, the E-side was swapped by one engineer, the RF3 filter removed and swapped with a SSFP and DLM reset, he insisted this would definitely solve it. Straightaway something seemed wrong following the swap because the download sync was only 12Mbps @ 6dB and 21dB attenuation instead of the usual healthy 19Mbps, but he insisted he had selected the best E-side and everything was perfect and to give it a try.
- Strangely enough, it WAS stable for 3 months. But then the line suddenly collapsed, very unstable and syncing slower and slower, download down to 2Mbps but always at 6dB noise margin, I guess this means noisy line.
- An engineer came and said he would check the E-side after I explained. He came back and said he had re-terminated the E-side and Tie Pairs, and the modem straightaway synced at 19Mbps 6dB.
- Sync speeds and real download speeds remained like this, perfect.
- But the line kept dropping sync, many times a week.
- Many engineers came, they all said the same thing, need to try a lift and shift. I don’t know what happened, but this never got authorised by someone and it was getting nowhere.
- I then migrated from one BTw ISP to another BTw ISP - AAISP, who promised to get it sorted.
- We were all surprised that as soon as the migration was performed, the line became instantly stable, it stayed up for 2 months. Any of you experts ever seen this before or know why it may have instantly cured it?
- AAISP said there were a few errors reporting on the line, but nothing too worrying especially given the stability.
- I then migrated back to the previous BTw ISP. Line remained stable for months and months on end, no issues, DLM even selected 3dB target SNRM downstream...
- Line is still syncing fast, very stable, but other issues described now developed
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g1000

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2015, 10:56:16 AM »

Hi guys

On the Plusnet site (where I am waiting for support) another user keeps posting that my BQM is fine.

He says it looks nice and ppl would kill for a BQM like that, and nothing to worry about. He is trying to persuade Plusnet there is no issue.

what do you think, is he right? this was the last BQM he responded to:



(The monitor stopping before midnight was due to a session drop)

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Chrysalis

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2015, 11:23:31 AM »

is his name andyh by any chance?
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g1000

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2015, 08:22:54 PM »

is his name andyh by any chance?
No, not him, an old friend of yours ?  ;) He posted soon after in fact to say that there are BQM issues.

Plusnet have now manually upped the SNR to see how that goes, I am now running 25% less sync than before...

If I upgrade to fibre, might that help? I'm wondering if that will effectively isolate the "E-side" and any line or hardware issues up that way? What about congestion and virtual paths and that stuff - is it shared with ADSL or different for fibre?

It's proving painfully slow and quite stressful trying to get this sorted, and the household is complaining about Netflix etc in the evening...
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tickmike

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2015, 09:24:45 PM »

I want this to come out ASAP, for a good price cheaper then FTTC. it would do me at 12M Down 2M Up..  ;) .
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=15069.0
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I have a set of 6 fixed IP's From  Eclipse  isp.BT ADSL2(G992.3) line>HG612 as a Modem, Bridge, WAN Not Bound to LAN1 or 2 + Also have FTTP (G.984) No One isp Fixed IP >Dual WAN pfSense (Hardware Firewall and routing).> Two WAN's, Ethernet LAN, DMZ LAN, Zyxel GS1100-24 Switch.

Chrysalis

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2015, 07:05:23 AM »

If it is a line issue which is possible, (its not my view it is, but I am just some person assessing this from my home, I am not a expert in FTTC and the insides of it.)  Then a upgrade to FTTC may help as that shortens the copper used, and as you said completely eliminates the E side.

Also if its svlan/exchange related upgrading to FTTC may change how you routed locally and avoid the problem.

But a lot of if's.
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boost

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2015, 07:50:15 AM »

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g1000

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2015, 08:07:15 AM »

The latest Plusnet advisor disagrees with the previous ones, he says the errors are a low-level and not enough to account for the issues.

He checked and said errors are constant throughout the day, not more in evening time, which he says backs up that line errors aren't the cause.

He hasn't actually said where that leaves the next step.

Previously Plusnet said my VP was blue, and there was definitely no congestion within the Plusnet network.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2015, 11:10:34 AM »

what plusnet dont seem to check is the BTw routing near their network, the svlan doesnt take you all the way.
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boost

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2015, 11:56:22 AM »

The latest Plusnet advisor disagrees with the previous ones, he says the errors are a low-level and not enough to account for the issues.

He checked and said errors are constant throughout the day, not more in evening time, which he says backs up that line errors aren't the cause.

He hasn't actually said where that leaves the next step.

Previously Plusnet said my VP was blue, and there was definitely no congestion within the Plusnet network.

You've already highlighted the ISP supplied figures are inconsistent. Choosing to believe one rep over another, based on the same flawed data, may not help you (Plusnet = LLU or BTW?).
You really need to consider harvesting your own, daily, stats. TBB graphs are utterly pointless; there are too many variables.
I'm sorry if this sounds blunt. I feel your frustration but you're not really allowing anyone to help you without posting locally generated line data ;/

Best of luck :)
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WWWombat

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2015, 04:09:48 AM »

The BQM looks more like congestion, to me, than caused by line errors. The red packet loss in peak hours, alongside the blue peaks (and even a hint of an increase in the green baseline) are all the "classic" symptoms of congestion. However, newer packet queuing mechanisms can hide even these symptoms somewhat.

There have been a few plusnet users experiencing congestion problems in strange ways, for whom a switch to a new gateway may or may not solve the problem. In general, your gateway is selected every time a new PPPoE session is started - which you ought to be able to order manually through your router UI, or will happen automatically after the router resyncs.

A fairly common symptom amongst those users is that the TBB speed test shows the x6 results as a fairly normal speed, but the x1 speeds being reduced.

Do you know if you have changed gateway (through either mechanism) while you have been experiencing this issue?

Other than that, the best recommendation I can make mirrors boost - start some local monitoring of your line statistics.
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g1000

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2015, 03:00:59 PM »

Sorry, I am away from home this week, I do plan to set up DSLstats as soon as I get back.

Plusnet have said they basically won't use this data though. The advisor said their supplier will only act on their own figures, and he has a full suite of BRAT data which graphs all the important data on a timeline and he has checked 24h windows over the past 14 days and the errors and noise are all constant and low-level and do not warrant further investigation.

He also said they will only accept BT speedtests to chase up with their supplier, which is a problem as these don't show much of an issue, same as the 6x TBB speedtest. But real downloads and 1x TBB speedtest are slow.

Switching to fibre and seeing how it goes seems very tempting


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jelv

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Re: Line problem vs Congestion
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2015, 04:57:53 PM »

Have Plusnet got capacity problems? You judge.

Here's a speed test I've just run:



and here's one from Tuesday evening:



So are my issues because of a high error rate?

Uptime:   4 days, 21:10:39
DSL Type:   ITU-T G.992.1
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:   832 / 8,128
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]:   621.30 / 3.56
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:   12.3 / 19.9
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:   11.0 / 20.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:   15.0 / 6.4
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote):   TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote):   BDCM / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):   0 / -
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):   0 / -
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):   0 / -
Loss of Link (Remote):   -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):   22 / -
FEC Errors (Up/Down):   0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down):   14 / 23
HEC Errors (Up/Down):   - / 20

I rather think not!

Here's Tuesday's BQM



« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 05:00:15 PM by jelv »
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