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Author Topic: Question about filters & faceplates  (Read 46993 times)

snadge

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Question about filters & faceplates
« on: May 17, 2013, 01:10:23 AM »

can anyone clarify this for me?

1) do filters and filtered faceplates have just a "low pass" filter on the phone port (blocking out the broadband) and no filter at all on the xDSL port (including VDSL faceplates such as SSFP) - because xDSL modems have the "high pass" filter built in, if a dongly filter or filtered faceplate used a high-pass filter before allowing the modem to do so again then the signal is filtered twice and may not be as good as if it was filtered once? - this is why filters only block broadband on the phone port and nothing on the xDSL port (too allow the modem to do the filtering).

2) ive been told that NTE2000 and NTE2005 faceplates were not designed to work on FTTC...which they weren't - but given the points above and the fact that ADSL and VDSL both filter from 4kHz and above, is there anything in these SSFP's (VDSL faceplate) thats not in the NTE2000 or NTE2005 that makes the SSFP better for VDSL?

my friend had FTTC installed, the OR engineer did not install an SSFP, he already had a NTE2000 installed and I said thats probably why? - from what I have read they should work the same...?  due to the modem filtering the xDSL itself from the signal - he has been using the NTE2000 perfectly fine on the VDSL connection with 73-74Mbps speeds, but has now bought a new NTE5 and SSFP (under instructions from someone else) yielding the same results.

what Iam trying to verify is points 1 and 2


thanks in advance :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2013, 01:41:35 AM »

I think you've got it, snadge:)

There is a direct connection between the line pair to a filter (be it a dangly micro-filter or a centralised filter) and the xDSL socket.

There are components forming a low-pass, high-block circuit between the line pair to a filter and the telephony socket.

All modems have a low-block, high-pass filter circuit built into them.

An NTE2000 or an NTE2005 device will be just as appropriate as the latest SSFP;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 01:47:53 AM by burakkucat »
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snadge

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2013, 01:52:54 AM »

thanks B'kat :)

so can you confirm that the SSFP has nothing new or different than that of a NTE2000/2005 that makes them work better on VDSL?
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burakkucat

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2013, 02:10:53 AM »

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing new or different between the devices . . . other than that of some years of progress in manufacturing procedures for the individual components and, thus, the whole device.

All an NTE2000, an NTE2005 or a SSFP does is to apply low-pass, high-block filtering to the telephony socket. If no telephones will ever be connected, then the filtering is actually redundant!  ::)
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c6em

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2013, 07:03:31 AM »

Not that this has stopped IT Clarity claiming that their VDSL faceplate filter is "more refined" than their previous ADSL faceplate.
http://www.clarity.it/vdsl_nte5_adaptor_faceplate.htm
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snadge

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2013, 10:53:12 AM »

All an NTE2000, an NTE2005 or a SSFP does is to apply low-pass, high-block filtering to the telephony socket. If no telephones will ever be connected, then the filtering is actually redundant!  ::)

well it can stop the xDSL signal from going past the NTE5 to other sockets where it may be corrupted by noise though..yes?
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ColinS

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2013, 11:38:07 AM »

The (VDSL) SSFP does also do the following, which other faceplates may or may not do:
1) Isolates any extension wiring, i.e. prevents you from running it with dongles elsewhere.  This may or may not be a good thing depending upon the state of your internal wiring.
2) it brings the VDSL signal onto punchdowns so that you can run a cat5e cable as a 'data extension'
3) makes the entire NTE twice the *~! size it previously was, thereby making it even more ugly and more likely to be knocked.  ::)

AIUI, more recent BTOR NTE5's allegedly have both the bell-wire disconnect and REIN filter included.  The SFI who resolved the lateral inbalance on my line last year fitted one as a matter of course 'in preparation for fibre' for that reason.

BTOR have already announced forthcoming Q3? changes to Fibre install whereby the ISP can provide the EU with either an SSFP or dongles along with their own CPE e.g. a combined VDSL modem/router
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snadge

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2013, 12:52:10 PM »

Hi Colin, all filtered faceplates terminate the dsl at the nte5, at least nte2000 n nte2005 do...  The ssfp is simply for ease of use and the dsl extension punch downs as u mention..  But it doesn't have anything that nte2ooo and other ffs don't have that's required for vdsl... As far as I'm aware O0

Sent from my Sony Xperia Miro on Tapatalk
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 12:54:32 PM by snadge »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2013, 02:45:06 PM »

The (VDSL) SSFP does also do the following, which other faceplates may or may not do:
1) Isolates any extension wiring, i.e. prevents you from running it with dongles elsewhere.  This may or may not be a good thing depending upon the state of your internal wiring.
2) it brings the VDSL signal onto punchdowns so that you can run a cat5e cable as a 'data extension'
3) makes the entire NTE twice the *~! size it previously was, thereby making it even more ugly and more likely to be knocked.  ::)

AIUI, more recent BTOR NTE5's allegedly have both the bell-wire disconnect and REIN filter included.  The SFI who resolved the lateral inbalance on my line last year fitted one as a matter of course 'in preparation for fibre' for that reason.

BTOR have already announced forthcoming Q3? changes to Fibre install whereby the ISP can provide the EU with either an SSFP or dongles along with their own CPE e.g. a combined VDSL modem/router

Hi Colin.

If I'm reading your post correctly, by 'Punchdowns' I'm assuming you mean IDC terminations (Insulation Displacement Connectors). More commonly referred to as 'Krone' connections ??

If so, I thought it worth pointing out that in time gone by, if the EU required a data-extention socket in another room to that of the NTE5, as this would be better suited for the router, we were told to use these terminations to carry the VDSL signal to the extention socket.
However, a rethink by 'them above' means if the same scenario is required, we have to run a 'Cat cable' from the plug-in port on the face-plate to where the socket is to be sited. The reason being, the demarcation point was breached if fed via the 'Krone' terminations, and therefore OR became liable for the new extention lead as well. With the later 'Plug-in' extention, the EU can still test at the NTE whether he has a connection or not, should a fault develop on his circuit ?? Hope this waffle makes sense ?? :)

PS ......... we were told that the NTE2000 and indeed the VDSL plates do have additional REIN/RFI protection built in to them. I can't prove this to be true (unlike Asbo or B*Cat), but I can say that before a REIN/RFI interference case is raised by our technical team, a NTE2000/VDSL plate HAS to have been fitted alongside an RF3 filter, before the case will be raised. Not advocating the practice, just saying that 'Thems the rules'.  ;) :)

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snadge

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2013, 03:14:11 PM »

RunITdirect (online seller of such hardware) says it's the new NTE5's faceplate that has a bellwire and rf3 filter on it? I will have to double check...  I wasn't aware that nte2ooo & ssfp had rf3 or whatever built in? If BT recommend fitting both on a noisy line then it must be something else other than rf3 built into faceplates?... I'm gunna find out more...  I have rf noise on my line and use both faceplates and the rf noise remains...  I was thinking about getting an rf3 just yo test..  But if new nte5 faceplate has one on it then I need just use a dongle filter as I recently installed a new nte5

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ColinS

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2013, 05:14:21 PM »

If I'm reading your post correctly, by 'Punchdowns' I'm assuming you mean IDC terminations (Insulation Displacement Connectors). More commonly referred to as 'Krone' connections ??
Yes, I did.  :)

Quote
If so, I thought it worth pointing out that in time gone by, if the EU required a data-extention socket in another room to that of the NTE5, as this would be better suited for the router, we were told to use these terminations to carry the VDSL signal to the extention socket.
However, a rethink by 'them above' means if the same scenario is required, we have to run a 'Cat cable' from the plug-in port on the face-plate to where the socket is to be sited. The reason being, the demarcation point was breached if fed via the 'Krone' terminations, and therefore OR became liable for the new extention lead as well. With the later 'Plug-in' extention, the EU can still test at the NTE whether he has a connection or not, should a fault develop on his circuit ?? Hope this waffle makes sense ?? :)
Yes, perfect sense, although personally I think that 'them above' have got a bit of a cheek really, as (to me at least) the whole point of a BTOR installed 'data extension' (as originally conceived) was indeed to move the demarcation point!!!!! Anyway with dongles mode shortly to be 'approved', what care I?  ;) :)

Quote
PS ......... we were told that the NTE2000 and indeed the VDSL plates do have additional REIN/RFI protection built in to them. I can't prove this to be true (unlike Asbo or B*Cat), but I can say that before a REIN/RFI interference case is raised by our technical team, a NTE2000/VDSL plate HAS to have been fitted alongside an RF3 filter, before the case will be raised. Not advocating the practice, just saying that 'Thems the rules'.  ;) :)
I can 'understand' why they might say that, but AFAIK it is an RF3 equivalent that is already in the faceplate ::) (and I think I have seen some evidence, if not proof, of that) - I think we discussed this privately at the time, as then at least, there was some difference in practise between OR mainland and your good selves. Of course the only right thing to do is 'always' to follow the rules!  ;) ;D
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burakkucat

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2013, 07:20:02 PM »

As I don't have a spare version of the latest NTE5/A available to submit to my 'disemboweling claw' I shall refrain from making any comment about the presence / absence of the RF3 components therein.  :P

However I would be surprised if the 'bean counters' have justified the few pennies expense that the fitting of the components would entail.  :-X

I do know that the lower, front, face-plate does have a choke in series with the 'bell wire' feed to the normal socket.
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ColinS

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2013, 12:00:50 AM »

Perhaps the bean counters realise the cost of fitting such an FP is less than the cost of investigating 'obvious' fault conditions?  ;)
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neilius

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2013, 07:40:26 AM »

I can confirm that on new NTE5/A's the bell wire/RF3 choke is installed in the lower fac eplate. Also, on the most recent ones, there is no surge arrestor, apparently omitted by Pressac on BT's request because they say it has an effect on the VDSL signal. Now it's just the cap and resistor on BT's side.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 07:43:43 AM by neilius »
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c6em

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2013, 08:48:39 AM »


Ah,
I wonder how that little gem about removing the surge arrestor from NTE5's is going to impact on the possibility of VDSL "self installs" in the future.
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