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Author Topic: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit  (Read 24455 times)

snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2012, 01:18:57 AM »

i vaguely remember something about the A/C Balance last time from last broadband engineer... he said it was 63db which was not great..but OK..?  - I remember telling BS and he said 63db was good , although that MAY have been the engineer before the first broadband one... the one who had me footing his ladder, carrying his bags and making him cups of tea :) all just me trying to be helpfull, infact he was great..he loved telling me all about it -  i was apprentice for few hours hehe

anyway, I remember that Engineer (no.4) AND the first Broadband Engineer (no.5) on about A/C Balance, if memory serves me right (and it hasnt been a lot lately hehe) they said 50/60 is about normal...mine was 63db which is good, but not great.. as if to imply the higher it was the worse it was...but searching through my old comments I see BS says the higher it is , the better..??  why would he say its not great at 63db.. if 50 to 60db is normal.??  gah! confused!!  ???

anyway, would the A/C Balance test result tell him there is wideband noise?
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burakkucat

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2012, 04:01:45 AM »

anyway, I remember that Engineer (no.4) AND the first Broadband Engineer (no.5) on about A/C Balance, if memory serves me right (and it hasnt been a lot lately hehe) they said 50/60 is about normal...mine was 63db which is good, but not great.. as if to imply the higher it was the worse it was...but searching through my old comments I see BS says the higher it is , the better..??  why would he say its not great at 63db.. if 50 to 60db is normal.??  gah! confused!!  ???

The bigger it is (in a negative sense -- remember the QLN graph Y-axis?), the better. That's my understanding.  :)

Quote
anyway, would the A/C Balance test result tell him there is wideband noise?

More, I think, that the pair will be prone to "pick up" any noise that may be available . . . Let's wait for a definitive comment from Black Sheep.

Yawn! Excuse me, b*cat needs to go and find his bed!  :sleep:
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kitz

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2012, 09:57:25 AM »

This sounds pretty bad :(   Waiting to see what BS says first but.........

I wonder if its worth putting a complaint into OFCOM about how the visit went and how as a consumer how difficult it is to get a satisfactory result when having to deal with 3rd parties.
It may even be worth thinking of trying to take it to one of the bods from BT.  Perhaps someone like Nigel Cheek may be a good person to approach?

From the Openreachwebsite you can see he has/had his finger in quite a few pies and a nice polite email to him asking for help may get some cogs moving.

Quote
Nigel Cheek, General Counsel, has invaluable experience in a number of areas key to the future of Openreach, plus an extensive knowledge of the product portfolio. Nigel leads on many of the formal requirements of our business including compliance and equivalence including leading Openreach's relationship with the Equality of Access Board.   He was previously General Manager, Market Operations Team with BT Wholesale's Legal & Business Services. Nigel negotiated the Local Loop Unbundling Adjudication Scheme with Ofcom on behalf of BT and was also a member of the team that negotiated the Telecommunications Strategic Review with Ofcom.

First link provides his contact details...  but wait see what others recommend first.
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2012, 11:50:29 AM »

aye good idea kitz... I think I might, the sky engineer asked me to write up a report to send to the escelations rep in ceo office who is dealing with my case; so he can get a copy so he can show the director it as further evidence of them being let down by BTor , best get my spell checker on hehe

thank B'Kat for the info - the engineer said the result showed there was wideband noise.. he didnt say anything along the lines that the result is low and therefore CHANCE of noise on line is greater..im pretty sure he would have said that instead of admitting I was right all along!!! hehe... yeah ive just realised we are talking negative values here... it was late last night (thats my excuse haha) , so -34db is worse because its closer too 0db..??
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Black Sheep

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2012, 02:35:29 PM »

No probs Snadge. Good and bad in every walk of life.

B*Cat (as always) is correct in his thinking .... it does indeed sound like you have a really awful AC Balance, which means the integrity of the circuit is extremely vulnerable to 'noise' ingress.

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Black Sheep

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 02:46:26 PM »

Crikey, I'd replied to Snadge's long comments on Page 1 without realising there was a P2 to this thread !! :-[

Snadge, take it from me without need to dig any deeper ....... the larger the number, the better the circuits integrity when talking about AC Balance. As B*Cat has pointed out, the actual figure is actually a negative integer, but the figure itself needs to be above -50dB for POTS circuits, ideally above -55-60db for DSL frequencies.

If you look at the graph below the further to the right you go (from 0dB), the nearer to absolute silence you go, and thats where your circuit wants to be heading ................... the further to the left from 0dB, the more audible noise is present. Your figure of -34dB is terribly poor and once cured will see your line behaving as before.


----------------------------+20dB ---+10dB---0dB -- -10dB --- -20dB --- -30dB --- -40dB --- -50dB --- -60dB ---

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burakkucat

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 06:42:35 PM »

A ceremonial bow to Burakku Sheep, in thanks for his clarification.  ;D
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2012, 11:33:12 PM »

thanks BS for the clarification :)

two things,...

A) should this be a relatively easy fix?
B) when I had -63db last time I had same speeds?

I searched my old posts and I remember one or two of the engineers saying I had an 'inbetween' type of value - one of em said it was -63db (had same speeds on that, same noise encroachment) - when I asked you , you said it was good, this makes me wonder if it WAS A/C balance he was referring too the other day? - I did ask but he was being difficult and when I asked what the test was and what it tested for he just repeated that it says there was wideband noise on the line but finding where its getting in can be difficult??

what causes these low A/C Balances? ...not grounding is it?

he didnt even check the junction box on end even though it was suggested that he should

one GOOD thing is that BTo have at least acknowledged a fault/issue...
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Black Sheep

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2012, 09:23:08 AM »

thanks BS for the clarification :)

two things,...

A) should this be a relatively easy fix?
B) when I had -63db last time I had same speeds?

I searched my old posts and I remember one or two of the engineers saying I had an 'inbetween' type of value - one of em said it was -63db (had same speeds on that, same noise encroachment) - when I asked you , you said it was good, this makes me wonder if it WAS A/C balance he was referring too the other day? - I did ask but he was being difficult and when I asked what the test was and what it tested for he just repeated that it says there was wideband noise on the line but finding where its getting in can be difficult??

what causes these low A/C Balances? ...not grounding is it?

he didnt even check the junction box on end even though it was suggested that he should

one GOOD thing is that BTo have at least acknowledged a fault/issue...

A) It will be as 'easy' to repair as any other type of network fault. It depends on where the actual fault is ?? If it's in a 300-pair WACK joint in a Manhole Carriageway Cover, on a main road that has a bus-route and a very high traffic count, then it could take weeks to repair due to having to apply for and the setting up of traffic-lights. Also having to get Second Stage Repair on board as anythng below 1mtr in depth requires specialised 'Blowing gear' to maintain the chamber is adequately vented.
Or, it could be incorrectly fitted gel-crimps in a PCP. 5 minute repair job.

B) I can only comment on the info you give me. If it is AC Balance we are talking about, and I'm sure it is, then your circuit will improve. The laws of physics dictate that, not me. There are a few ways of measuring AC Balance. I can guess that the way yours was measured was via a PQT test at your premises. This is a one-shot test that will take the measurement just once and this is what it shows on the tester. If you have a 'tapping' fault (ie: its there then its not), the AC Bal could be rising and falling and the PQT has 'seen' it at its best. The HHT's we use can perform a real time view of AC Bal as a seperate function to the PQT, and its this screen that will show whether its fluctuating dramatically.

AC Bal is taken by measuring across the two wires, then by shorting the 2 wires together and measuring between them an Earth. Then subtract one figure from the other. Some engineers prefer to do this themselves, rather than rely on the HHT's version of events. I personally trust the JDSU.

As an aside, AC Bal radings can be taken against applied nominal voltage. A lot of the engineering community may be mis-led into thinking it can only be taken against a 'dead pair' ?? Just a heads up in case you get a good engineer who doesn't mind you asking questions and looking at the HHT readings. ;) 
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2012, 01:00:06 PM »

thanks for the insight BS...
 
well...guess what ....IT HAS BEEN FIXED!!!   8) 8) 8)

it was a split leg!!
 - down at the exchange (I think, cant remember now) but he said a wire on my pair was in contact with a wire from another...or at least explained it like that... strange how its not picked up by any of the other engineers, I asked about the test he run and he said it wasnt an A/C Balance test but a Wideband Noise Test..??

its not back to its best..the radio stations are bleeding in just a TINY bit more comapred to before all this happened... Iam getting 15.7Mb so far on my 834N ..ive yet to test my other routers...but its 'about' right so Iam happy with that - ive never really tried my netgears with sky before all this happened  - so it was the sky router which got an 18Mb sync with DLM on (on 18Mb profile) - the sky router has a much better BCM 6362 chip and defo gets higher sync than my Netgears...also my 834N reports 27.5db / 28db Line Atten ...higher than my 834GT (26db) and much higher than my Sky Router F@ST 2504N (25db)

He said that I was getting 17.9Mb at the cab, the cab is just around the corner, well about 2 mins walk away.

Yes it was the SAME Engineer...working on the Monday like he said he would... he was much nicer this time around too and even wished us a happy bank holiday!???????  ??? ??? ???  totally different man today lol...

Netgear 834GT =  26.5db / 15.6Mb / 1.14Mb (Broadcom 6348)
Netgear 834N = 27.5db / 15.7Mb / 1.17Mb (Broadcom 6358)
Sagem 2504N = 26.0db / 16.6Mb / 1.14Mb (Broadcom 6362)


as you can see sky's router (6362) obliterates the Netgears (6348/6358) BUT is not unlocked so cant be tweaked :( (only sky router that isnt) , I can push 18Mb in Netgears with 3-4db SNRM , would like to see what I could get on an unlocked Sagem F@ST 250N

the Upstream Line Attenuation is still jumping all over the place though...

HERE IS BEFORE / AFTER OF THE QLN STATS - I would also like to say a big THANK YOU to everyone who helped with my case and sussing out the noise with graphs etc so I could present them to sky for evidence... especially BALD_EAGLE, ASBOKID, COOLSNAKEMAN, KITZ, B'KAT, UKHARDY07 AND BLACK SHEEP ..if I missed anyone out its just cos my memory  :-[




stats from 834GT:


« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 09:01:43 PM by snadge »
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2012, 01:27:29 PM »

That looks much better than your graphs from 16th May (attached).

Hlog (attenuation) is more or less identical though.

For a true side-by-side comparison, could you plot the graphs with QLN using the same Y-axis as 16th May?

Is your attenuation jumping around while connected, or only when you resync?
IT shouldn't really alter much at all.
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 01:40:41 PM »

thanks for your help BA - couldnt have done it without you mate :) - please see the post above amened ;)
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coolsnakeman

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 03:45:30 PM »

Snadge,

That is fantastic news!!!!! See what you get when you push a little harder than usual. You always come out with a good end result. I believe however you need a round of applause yourself and pat yourself in the back for the evidence gathering you did there isn't alot of people out there that would push themselves to that level of investigation and i have to say you have well impressed me  ;D Now the fun part of keeping a close watch on it but i am sure with the looks of those graphs we are all confident enough the journey has come to an end. Again well done mate and you know this forum is always going to be about to help yourself, myself and many many more people that are involved in the world of technology  8)

Gary
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burakkucat

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 08:58:50 PM »

Excellent news, Snadge!

 :thumbs:  :clap:  :dance:  :silly:  :congrats:  :drink:
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asbokid

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2012, 12:59:17 AM »

yeah, great news   :D
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